The Flying Dutchmen - Deity Adventures

Ruler · Sep 12, 2007

I totally agree as he said this is nothing more than Monarch that was little too much to be honest I hope he can play like he speaks.

How long are we going to play. Everybody is going to play to the bitter end? It's fine by me though but if Uberfish what to take over that's ok but I wouldn't mind to see at least everyones playing up to 1 AD or so.

uberfish · Sep 12, 2007

If you picked up the game a little late and still want to play along, feel free. This isn't a competition and you can use my saves, your saves or anyone else's. Just don't read on if you don't want to be spoiled.

Analysis:

Seafood with a financial leader is definitely a good start, since 5/0/3 coast fish are uber. The reason the start is good is not that I repeatedly regenerated the start position, but simply that it's the first start with this leader that I managed to get out of the BCs with a playable position and therefore statistically likely to be above average :lol:

The best way to start when you have fishing + a coast resource is to just build a boat as quickly as possible, switching to the plains hill when available. This gets the total food+hammer output of the city up faster than building a worker would, and a couple of posters made the good point that the fishing boats are immune to barbarians in the early game. I decided to research Animal Husbandry first because of the pigs in the fat cross; all that food would make the capital an excellent settler/worker factory in the early game.

Initial builds: fishboat, fishboat, warrior, worker, settler
Research order: AH, mining, bronze, wheel, iron, hunting, pottery

Scouting north reveals that we started blocking off a small peninsula, with three prospective city sites:

The red circle is the most productive of these, so obviously I settle it first.

... or not. Yeah, my second city (Utrecht) went right into the middle of the jungle. I went a bit out on a limb here, because the gems and ivory were the only two early happiness resources in sight and I wanted to claim them as soon as possible before the deity AI with its early bonuses could, and get that Creative culture working the area to defend my claim.

In order to make this defensible the third city had to go in the gap between Amsterdam and Utrecht. I notice a few players settled 1NW of my Hague spot to get 4 calendar resources in the city fat cross, but I wanted to fit two cities into that area to make use of all the grassland and coasts.

There are a couple of downsides to this strategy. I'm giving up entirely on an early rush because these cities have low initial production until I can clear the jungle, and my capital is going to be stuck doing all my early worker/settler production because I didn't get a nice high food site like the cow/corn to the north up early.

Barbarians have pillaged my pigs, but warriors with 40% culture defend the capital fine against archers.

Belisar · Sep 12, 2007

I think expanding south agressively was the only viable move on the long run because the north is somewhat poor with the exception of your red dot.
You will need enough production to back it up so your blue dot with 3 (4 if it shares one from the capital) hills would be my priority while the cap can provide the settlers/workers with all it's excess food.

Flamer123 · Sep 12, 2007

i have a few questions, and they by no means mean competition nor offense, just a good debate (that's the whole point

)

1)founding utrecht where u did was a bold move, but in retrospective, would u have done the same?
gaining two happy resources means +2 pop in every city, so that's potentially +6 for 3 cities. However, Uttrecht means pop 1 till quite late in the game (it has -3 health now), compared to the pop 4 limit of happines it usually would have had, so that's -3. Hague's position right now will cause -1 health already at pop 4, and since it has no special food tiles, it can't go over 4 till u irrigate extensively/clear jungles. so that's +2 pop for capital, -3 for Uttrecht and +0 for Hague.
I think Hague could have been built on the 2nd spot u intended - near the spices - it has no health problems, resources and landgrabbing wise its the same as Hague's current position. since no health problems, u'll get +2 pop for hague cause of happinnes, and that's +2-3+2=+1 advantage to settling uttrecht.

how much time will it take to connect those happy resources? let's say till 1000 BC? HR usually gets discovered before 1AD, so that's around 25 turns of +1 pop.

btw, if all ur cities have religion as well, that's -4 to uttrecht, so that's +2-4+2=+0 advantage to settling uttrecht.

2) why did u go for IW before alphabet? u didn't plan on rushing, and IW is highly favoured by the ai's tech, so it will hurt a lot on the possibility to catch the ai on tech. if it was to get clear jungles for the gems and ivory i think the alphabet line is better cause u'll get IW at roughly the same time.

3) do u have a win u're currently aiming for

Ruler · Sep 13, 2007

Here's my update as a matter of fact I'm so eager about the game maybe I've a shot to my first Deity victory althought a long way to go but the map is just nice so I'm going to finish this any time soon. I keep posting it here as I started.

Spoiler :

Ruler · Sep 13, 2007

Next update.

Spoiler :

ungy · Sep 13, 2007

Uberfish:
Very bold move on settling! I think you are well positioned.

I had major trouble with barbs--when you have a coastal start like this you are slow to get warriors out a bust the fog. I notice you initially built warriors even slower than I did but seemed to have less trouble.

I also had trouble keeping it busted--this might be a pretty basic question but how do you defend the fogbusters? Archer vs. fort war on hill is around even so I retreat and don't take that. I only stand and fight if I'm fort on forest hill vs archers. On immortal there is more time to get prepared. The culture cross is much earlier as well so often at immortal you can solve the whole thing with a resource hook up just in time which here is too late.

In my game I had an early barb city blocking to the S, and I got pushed out of the red site and they founded near there. Did I just get unlucky or how should I deal with that--seems like you're pretty screwed on deity if the barbs claim near (but not on) your sites?

lilnev · Sep 13, 2007

I've played into the AD years, but don't have time to post now. I too had my chosen blocking site occluded by a barb city. So I settled the Horses instead, with the intent of eventually pushing them off. Barb cities can sometimes be a blessing, actually, as they hold the spot for a while and keep the AIs out.

To deal with barbs, I mostly let them kill themselves on my cities. Keep an extra warrior, as the fights are favorable but not unlosable. Once my Horse city hit 10 culture and my capital 100, I only needed two warriors to completely fogbust the north, plus one for the neck of the peninsula.

peace,
lilnev

Flamer123 · Sep 13, 2007

I still have no idea how to use the "insert image" button to directly insert images into the text.
just added 2 pictures to my earlier post.
1440 BC - aquired IW by trading alphabet. i immidietly started producing swordsman/barracks from capital and Uttrecht to rush napoleon.
700 BC - declared war on napoleon after scouting with open borders. initial force of 7 swordsman + 2 chariots (lost pigs improvment cause of lack of forces back home) while more are being produced from my capital and Uttrecht.
475 BC - sued for peace after Napoleon lost his capital and another city, he only has one city left which he'll lose in 10 turns. he gave tribute techs priesthood and mono.

plans for the future - Domination victory - in 10 turns Napoleon will be defeated (after peace ends), i'll start building the great libary, switch tech towards maceman+cats and build buildings till then. When maceman r secure, unless some unforseen event occurs, i'll go against sitting bull (he's #2 in the score and landlocking me). I'll probably wait till Shaka DOW on him, wait 3 turns, and join in the fight. Hopefully shaka and ramesses will keep on fighting amongst themselves for a while (yeah, it happens in my game too

).

uberfish · Sep 13, 2007

responses:

Flamer - I'd probably found there again because it claims the most land as well as the 2 luxury resources (which give an extra happy after forge and market.) HR is not a complete solution to all happiness problems, it's ok if you're just trying to pacify your capital but the cost to produce and maintain military police for an entire country is prohibitive. I went for IW because I didn't want to be left completely hanging if I gambled for alphabet and the AI wouldn't trade.

I am aiming for space, if I wanted culture I'd settle Hague on the 4 calendar resources spot.

Nice rush.

Ungy - I picketed only the south and let barbarians from the north pillage my pigs and suicide on the capital. The barbarians settled only to the south (Napoleon captured it quickly) so you were unlucky. Usually if the barbarians settle sites that I want but in the wrong spot, I will settle other cities first then send a few swords to raze the barb city, they usually have 0% cultural defence and are easy prey even on deity.

I'll post another update on the weekend to 0AD or so

Ruler · Sep 13, 2007

I couldn't stop playing even it's pretty late here and I've to wake up very early. What can I say I'm addict.

It didn't work out so well this time.

Spoiler :

Tech-path.
Education -> Liberalism.

Events.

880 AD. After seeing Napoleon's new stack. 4 Musketeers, 4 War Elephants, 3 Maceman, 4 Crossbow, 2 Longbow, + many more at southeast of The Hague it was clear my chances are slim and I can't do anything to bribe Sitting Bull to fight I can only hope he joins for fun when I'm asking kindly at war what I will but because I still can't switch to Hinduism I doubt so I've to somehow take care of Napoleon's stack that's for sure so my plan is to defend a hill with jungle near The Hague and hope Napoleon attacks after that I capture Chartres and I take Tours and ask for peace. Tours is city with a hill so it's good for defending, after that as first planned.

900 AD. Trading with Genghis Khan. Paper for Aesthetics + 100 gold. How did I forget National Epic. I'm noob.
940 AD. Napoleon it's me or you! No help from Sitting Bull just what I expected.
960 AD. First Great General, I'm going to use it to get Medic III.
1000 AD. Napoleon took the bait and my stack held strong with minimal losses and his stack down to two.
1030 AD. Chartres defended by 3 Musketeers, 2 longbow, just to mention a few. After 3 cats my chances to win with my Macemens are 60% not so bad to be honest. I lost some units but still more than 10 units left and reinforcements are waiting in THe Hague, but it's important I capture Tours. Moved more Cats towards my main stack. Too few Cats definitely.
1050 AD. Sitting Bull asking a tribute. Of course, my darling. Man, if this game ends because stupid Hinduims didn't spread to my cities I'm going to cry.
1060 AD. New Napoleon's stack is approaching. 4 Trebs, 2 Musketeers, 2 Elephants, 2 longbow and 2 crossbow, and 1 axe. I don't like this little bit. I can only hope they don't get The Hague before I get Tours then I can ask for peace. Whipping starts in The Hague now. Sitting BUll still grabling it's balls, what's wrong with you, don't you want more land!
1070 AD. One longbow took another city defender crossbow at Chartres. Defenders down to two. Napoleon's stack coming towards my main stack I guess it's better than my city. I wait on hill. I just noticed my mistake why didn't I go straight from Chartres to Tours instead I decide go back to The Hague and get some unnecessary units. Reload? nope. Tours could be captured by now and I could be making a peace with Napoleon.
1080 AD. I can't believe I left 2 city defender crossbows and 2 spearman in Chartres. Now Napoleon's musketeers killed one of my last units. What are the chances that one longbow kills two crossbows. Let me ask. My main stack held and now proceeding now to Tours. I guess I can capture Chartres later. Also, second Great General. Military Intructor to Utretch.
1090 AD. Chartres lost, but my main stack is next to Tours. I lost also one of my Great Generals to Napoleon.
1100 AD. Tours cultural defenses are way too high. I was thinking about City Revolt it's usually works with Maceman rush why didn't I do it. Sitting Bull first to Liberalism. I'm 15 turn away.

THE END!

cheffster · Sep 13, 2007

I started this one late, but here I am at 1480BC. I'm about to finish the oracle, then grab metal casting to tech trade. (and start my birth rate rolling a GPreist.

The gems/ivory down south people are talking about is already blocked off by a barb city, and since i have stone I'm going to try and get the pyramids so I shouldn't need the luxury resources anyways. Uberfish was saying how he likes to settle his most productive city first and I know my untrech won't be a good city at all..(its not even counted as on a river so I wont be able to build a dike or get the health bonus) but I settled it first to access the stone, and working the floodplains/wine tiles are excellent for the time being, and its really close. Later on that city will suck, but all my other cities within the vicinity will be costal, so that middle terrain would be probably wasted otherwise, and I can settle in the other good places without having to resourceshare.

tech path was - mining>Bronze working>sailing>wheel>pottery>mysticsm>meditation>preisthood>masonary.
then metal casting (from oracle)
build order was -workboat, workboat, warrior, worker, settler, worker, workboat, settler, oracle.

Giaur · Sep 14, 2007

Should we play beyond 1500BC?
btw. How to make thumbnails?

Flamer123 · Sep 14, 2007

Uberfish, I have a suggestion, though it's ur thread so it's ur call
I think that the point of this thread should be more on debates and less on a show of strength of how each is doing.

so I think it's best that instead of playing all the turns with the initial save game, we'll play till 1AD which is enough time for the initial strategy to be set and mature enough to judge it.

we'll then all post save games and walkthrough and discuss which startegy was the best and why, then decide again on the save game of 1AD from which we'll play 100 turns more and so on.

uberfish · Sep 14, 2007

We're playing until 1 AD now, after that I don't mind whose save people play from. It would be more interesting to see how the game plays out from different initial settling decisions, and different strategies (attacking with swords, or medieval, or renaissance, or not at all) than everyone trying to optimize from the same save.

Ruler · Sep 14, 2007

Even my game is over. I reloaded this morning thought give it a another to shot. At least I can say if I win I've won Deity with one reload. bwt, first to Lib. I just whipped more units my army was over 30 units. I used GM for golden age to push the last meters to lib and added little bit micromanagement, and built currency in some cities and used to get more gold from Education.

My thoughts about the first turns. I started with warriors as knowing how hard barbs are on Deity so I didn't want to end this too soon. I started with 2 warriors after those I noticed that north of Amsterdam is pretty much fogbusted, nice, so I built one more and used my initial warrior to fogbust south, but when I noticed that no copper I thought I'll gamble it's Iron or Warriors, hunting -> archery took way too long, AH for horses not big fan of Chariots and there was enough food from seafood to not work a pig, so I decide to make one warrior more just to make sure about south, but 5 warrior was little bit excessive, but who knows without my last warrior I didnt maybe find a gem. After that worker, then chopped two settlers, followed by two worker because a city without worker is like a cigarette without fire, then I aimed at writing via pottery to get a 2 scientist running and build granary before lib is just what I do. Second city was only found because of food and whipping possibility, again wanted to play it safe, now I had two amazing city for whipping so I couldn't go down without fighting, maybe it was better to build two more cities to south but all way to ivory was extreme.

I think one picture speaks more than thousands words I'm glad there's so many different kind of approaching to the game. I think Uberfist did a good job in long run, but there's many obstacles to overcome. The game is not yet over.

btw, I was kind surprised that every AI had IW once I got Alphatech. I wonder do they start with it and isn't that pretty decent city two north of horses.

Giaur · Sep 14, 2007

Spoiler :

Flamer123 · Sep 14, 2007

I posted a screenshot of my game at 940 AD.
just won the race to liberalism, but still i'm not the best on tech.
I have 10 cities with a good economy (best has 13 cities, i'm #3 tied with #4), but I'm landlocked.
I finished the french some time ago, but i was stuck for quite a while cause i can't attack neither Ramesses nor sitting bull cause Ramesses is sitting bull's vassal. for quite a while decided to drop the domination aim.

My question is - did i lose the game already cause i didn't went for a more agressive approach from 475BC to 940 AD?

is a win on deity possible only if u're #1 on the number of cities (to counter those huge bonuses), and if so, how soon do u need to reach that goal?

I'm trying to find a kind of "if u haven't done this and that by year ... then u're 99% lost".

cheffster · Sep 14, 2007

heres my game at 1AD. I think I've been very lucky in terms of pulling off the wonders I was able to build. I was able to build the collossus because I got metal casting well before the ai from oracle, and hanging gardens I already had a nested GE, and stone, so i built that in 3 turns via chopping/whipping (would have only taken a full 6 turn to build and not hurry, but better safe then sorry). I'm going to use that Great Engineer you see in my capital to rush the Great Library as soon as I get literature. (I hate 'wasting' him in that sense, id much rather settle him, but I think with deity ai they will beat me to it otherwise since I dont have marble or even the industrious trait bonus). As you may have guess I love buliding lots of wonders and usually don't worry about military later till I have better tropps and bribe other ais to help me.

heres a few ss's of my capital, tech, and city locations.
(images resized to 1024x768 so they dont clog screen)
My next city is going to be right on top of the cow resource to the far most norther part and on the furthest west tile - to acces the fish, and lots of sea itsn't bad with dikes/financial/collossus)

Spoiler :

uberfish · Sep 15, 2007

Nice wonder collection! I'm definitely surprised you managed to get all of those on deity.

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