The Forgotten Leaders

dankok8

Elected World Leader
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
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Canada
I was thinking we should have a thread where we discuss the possible strategies of the less commonly used leaders, focusing particularly on those who have great potential.

I thought we should start with Wang Kon because in most of the games I play with Korea, they seem to be most advanced in technology and even have a formidable military. In fact, I'm thinking of playing my next game with them and I want to know some good general strategies.

Traits: Financial, Protective (BTS)
UU: Hwacha (replaces Catapult); +50% vs. melee units; needs Construction
UB: Seowon (replaces University); +35% science, +3 culture (University - +25%, + 3 culture); needs Education
 
Good idea! I wouldn't say Wang is an uncommon leader though. In Warlords esp he was very, very powerful with his UU, UB, and financial trait.

I'll go with Saladin. A lot of people don't like Saladin and tbh I'm one of them. However, I think he does in fact have potential.

Basically, it's all about gprophet spamming.

He starts with mysticism, so go for a religion. Put stonehenge and oracle in your capital once you spit out a pair of settlers. Turn your capital into your gpfarm. Shrine gives you priest slots. Cheap temples give you priest slots. The UB gives priest slots. Farm those prophets!

Don't forget to generate 1 GS early though to bulb philosophy. Another religion, and also the angkor wat = great for this strat.

With your prophets focus on lightbulbing techs through divine right and CS, as well as building shrines. Spread the religions for $.

At some point the average UU can help you break out and conquer some territory. The nice thing is if you have a bit smaller of an empire early, you don't have to worry about claiming iron/horses to build your knights.

Once you've generated enough great prophets (don't forget about pacificism, another reason to bulb phil!) to meet all your needs then you can decide if you want to switch to artists to go after a cultural victory (you'll have the religions for it) or if you want to do something else. I would say a cultural victory is very fitting.
 
Saladin is great example!! I might consider playing with him soon. I might go for a cultural since I've never won one of those. :blush:

Good idea! I wouldn't say Wang is an uncommon leader though. In Warlords esp he was very, very powerful with his UU, UB, and financial trait.

Even though Wang Kon is not really forgotten as you've pointed out, I'll do him anyways since he is probably the least popular of all Financial leaders; he has the worst second trait possible - Protective. His UU is pretty good since catapults are used extensively in all my games and his UB is good for teching although the bonus is not that big. Financial though = lots of beakers.

Wang Kon starts with Mysticism and Mining so founding an early religion (Buddhism/Hinduism) is a good idea as it opens the path to Priesthood which enables the Oracle and brings in some extra cash. Take Monarchy as the free tech or preferably Feudalism if you have already researched Monarchy. Once in Feudalism, build a few longbowmen. With Protective and a Barracks in a city, you may be able to get CG2 out of the gate to defend from those pesky barbs and aggressive AI's like Monty who attack with obsolete SOD's.

If you start with ivory nearby, make sure to go after Construction even faster than usual to enable Hwacha and War Elephants. A mixed stack of 'phants and Hwachas should do wonders. Because of Hwacha's strength vs. melee units, it can act as a stack defender too. If no ivory, give some longbowmen combat I and II and use them with CR swordsmen and Hwacha.

While securing some land in the early classical, get Litarature, build the GL and power your way towards Liberalism, grabbing Education along the way for the Seowon. At this point, you should be ahead of the AI in tech and well defended with at least CG2 longbowmen that you can smell space victory. BTW, consider grabbing Gunpowder from Liberalism for Protective musketmen to bolster your defenses. Finally, do not forget to cottage spam early. :)
 
Saladin is a good leader that gets an unfairly bad rap, I think. He has the best trait in the game, and Protective is also pretty decent now. His UB is great, and his UU, though fairly uninspiring, can be handy in a pinch.

Saladin is a leader well-suited to taking advantage of the actual religious side of the spiritual trait. However, I wouldn't go for an early religion, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, your chance of getting one is pretty low on high levels, and there's better things to be researching for the development of an empire. Second, you don't need an early religion to get a Great Prophet, because your madrassas take care of that. Third, you're pretty much guaranteed Theology and Christianity if you want it, and you have a good chance at Taoism, Confucianism and even Islam. Fourth, the AI has become very aggressive with its missionary spam, and if an AI on your continent founds one of the other religions, you're going to have to spend a hell of a lot of resources trying to win the missionary war. Fifth, because of that missionary spam, it's very easy to get one of the early religions spread to you anyway.

Early, I would use Protective archers to aggressively land-grab and defend from barbs. I would then beeline Code of Laws via Writing then Priesthood, running one city with scientist specialists, and one with priests. The priests should ideally pop a prophet first, and depending on the religious situation of the continent and whether Confucianism has been founded, either plow on to CoL or divert to Monotheism (and the other of mysticism/polytheism) and bulb Theology before finishing CoL.
Run OR to spread missionaries of the most diplomatic religion around the country, then work towards monarchy if necessary and the techs to allow the second GP to bulb Pacifism (or run both scientists and priests - if you get a second prophet before Monarchy, you can bulb Civil Service).
I wouldn't spend a prophet on a shrine until after there's nothing decent to bulb.

As for high road vs low road, it really depends on the situation. Liberalism->Nationalism can give lots of drafted Protective muskets early or shoot to Constitution, and is easy to bulb to with bursts of CS/Pacifism and scientists (if you've got theology, you can even avoid civil service if the circumstances are right, and trade for it later as you're researching liberalism).
On the other hand, low road gives drill crossbows and camel archers and the chance to proselytise religion-free civs before anyone else can.

With Camel Archers, I'm not sure when to favour them and when to ignore them. Obviously they're great when you've got nothing, but they're also good when you've got horses but not metal. HBR can be researched early, and Horse Archers used for early warfare, and upgraded to camel archers as necessary.
The other thing about them is that they get an extra 15% withdrawal chance over normal knights, so the flanking promos become much more worthwhile, they're very impressive against enemy siege, and they can often hit weakly-defended targets of opportunity without waiting for your own siege as backup (particularly if you incite a revolt).

Past that, I would probably abuse Rep+pacifism+scientists/spies to bulb a path to physics/biology (and maybe medicine for sushi), whip in a bunch of buildings (especially espionage ones) with slavery/OR and go from there with war/espionage-heavy late game.
Use OR periodically to spread every religion possible to every city and build cheap temples, and use the extra happiness (especially when switching to FR) for war weariness, big populations, and/or drafting drill gunpowder units.
 
Hwachas went from awesome to just kind of... Meh... what with the damage caps for siege weapons. They're still not bad, of course, but not being able to kill anything (except on the defense) is kind of unexciting.

I like Protective as a trait, though. The discount on walls and castles is especially helpful in BTS, and two free promotions for your Gunpowder units is very, very good--especially now that Drill and Combat are interchangable for the purpose of unlocking new promotions. Your Riflemen can, with just a Barracks, start out City Defender I, Drill I, and Pinch. That's pretty beefcake. Drill's an overlooked promotion. Some people are under the impression that it's a defensive promotion, but it works equally well on the attack.
 
...You mention that Wang Kon has the worst 2nd trait to financial... As I havent got BTS yet, I'd like an explanation to what could possibly be worse than Mansa MUsa's combo Fin / Spi. I enjoy both of these traits, but not together... Mix this up with a very defensive UU and you have an annoying leader. :p
 
Saladin should be a nice challenge to play. Not so easy to go for cultural win though as it is easiest if you are philosophical, financial or industrious.

The cheap castles of the protective trait make want to try win a diplomatic game...have good relations build castles and trade route wonders open borders as much as I can and go for early free market.

I always seem to go for max specialists with merchandilism and representation so this will be a nice change for me.
 
have good relations build castles and trade route wonders open borders as much as I can and go for early free market.

Free Market is unlocked by Economics, which cancel the "trade route"-effect of castles, unfortunately.
 
I agree on Saladin and wang Kon as forgeotten leaders although the korean seamed popular at first once Warlords came out.

My forgotten leader is Washington. No, not money bags from Vanilla but with the warlords traits and the improved UB in BTS (Yes I think it's way improved). He is one of the strongest in the early game, and I think THE stangest late in the (honorable mention to fellow Americans Lincoln and Roosevelt)

He starts with Fishing and Agriculture, the best trait combo for getting lots of food regardless of start (unless it's a desert or tundra).

His traits are expansive (+2 health, 1/2 speed granaries and harbors, +25% speed worker production) and Charismatic (fast promotions, and +1 happiness). These traits give him the best potential for what Futurehermit call Vertical expansion from the gate, +2 health and +1 happiness, plus fast garneries once you tech Pottery (he already has the prerequisite tech). Because he can build food resources fast he can pop out workers very fast. The massively build food and larger capital also allows very fast settler production (close to imperialistic speed).

His tech path should start right away Mining/BW/Mysticism and nab Stonehenge for the free monuments and extra +1 happiness (he should at least 2-3 workers out for chopping), plus he has a reasonable chance at the oracle which he should use for COL. Early COL allows early courthouses for very early horizontal expansion. The first Prophet should be for the Shrine, money issues resolved. This is a very doable and brutal early expansion.

Mid-game Washington offers no real advantage.

Late Game. The mall is a monster, you can tech it by Physics/electricity/refridgeration a rather unconventional tech path from what I have seen in this forum, but defeinitely the best for old George (refridgeration is fairly cheap too). 20% gold is like another matket in the shrine city, plus an endless supply of happiness if you nab the three happiness wonders (you should if you beeline radio from electricity after refridgeration). The Mall also offer 1 free food (the supermarket also does this, it's not specific to the Mall). Finally, the Mall goes best with all the corps (honorable mention the Charlemanges UB), the 20% gold will turn any corp regardless of it's since into a money machine, just make sure you have some GPs saved up, especially a merchant since you can get general cereals once you tech Refridegeration.

Military: While George prefer the peaceful expansionistic lifestyle, he can certainly wage war. His charismatic trait is considered by alot of people as the best war-mongering trait (I agree). His very early vertical expansion allows alot of early whipping and axe rushing especially if he can find copper after BW. If he can get COL early like I sugegsted off the oracle he can take quite a few AI cities. His Navy Seals is late but starts with the march promotion and 2 first strikes and is the only UU (other than Indian Workers) that will NOT go obsolete. Capturing AI cities on distant continents is not a problem with Old George, plus he should have made some really good military producing cities that late in the game, not uncommon to build Seals with three additional promotions.

Well, that's my Forgotten leader.
 
I personally love Washington for the reasons you mention. I was going to write him up, but went for Saladin instead. Glad to see him on here.
 
...You mention that Wang Kon has the worst 2nd trait to financial... As I havent got BTS yet, I'd like an explanation to what could possibly be worse than Mansa MUsa's combo Fin / Spi. I enjoy both of these traits, but not together... Mix this up with a very defensive UU and you have an annoying leader. :p

Hmm, I actually love playing as MM because of those two traits (I love financial and hate anarchy), but I must be in the minority because I don't see a lot of love for MM on the forum.

The traits are not the most synergetic, and I agree that the UU sucks. However, MM does have a good UB that is available early and works very well with his financial trait. His starting techs are great too, mining leads to bronze working and chop, and the wheel leads to pottery and cottage. He's a very solid leader to play a builder/techie style, and in that sense, maybe a defensive UU is not that bad.
 
Musa is a tech monster. No anarchy gives him minimum 1-2 techs over other non-spiritual AIs, financial is the best trait for early techning. The UU is an excellent early defender, allowing you the ability built your economic empire while teching your way to metal casting for the UB and it's +10% gold. MM can also get the oracle fairly easily by chopping it out since he can tech BW from the get go.

Militarily he is OK from the start but not really good afterwards (at least no advantage over any AI). His UU matches well to chariots and spearmen and he can get axemen out faster than any other leader.
 
I personally love Mansa and have him ranked as top 5 in my rankings. The UU is great when used properly.
 
I personally love Mansa and have him ranked as top 5 in my rankings. The UU is great when used properly.

Out of curiosity, which are you top 5 leaders?
 
Mansa, Hannibal, Elizabeth, Darius, Willem

Not necessarily in that order

My preferences in warlords were a lot different and were focused more on SE and early war (e.g., I really prized Kublai and Hatty), but in BtS financial is great because out-teching and THEN attacking is so much more powerful. Honourable mentions to HC and Pacal who are also phenomenal leader imo.
 
Mansa Musa is far from forgotten.. I think about him every day. ;) He's one category better techer than even people like Wang Kon. Only Elizabeth can keep up with that guy; come on, she's Financial, Philosophical and has an awesome UB and UU. Mansa flies through the tech tree. In my opinion also a very versatile leader (I won a domination victory with him). Financial and his UB mint give you tons of cash while spiritual allows to quickly change civics and organize for war. Given his tech superiority and a quick shift in wartime to Police State, Vassalage/Nationhood, Theocracy means Mansa can usually stay on par with the guys like Shaka and Monty who have larger but obsolete armies.

BTW my top 5 leaders (with their default civs taking into account UU, UB):

1. Elizabeth I
2. Augustus Ceasar
3. Willem van Oranje
4. Mansa Musa
5. Darius I or Cyrus (I found Cyrus has good synergy too so can't decide)

Also in contention: Justinian, Huayna Capac
 
Alot of financial leaders in the top 5

Mine would be
1) Ramses
2) Agustus (BTS version)
3) Hyuna
4) Asoka
5) Muhmed

Honorable mention for the three Americans and Hannibal on a water board (who I think competes with Liz and Musa techwise IF it's an arheopolego).
 
common people, please give us more insights!

good points about G Washinton early game. he sounds like a good 'double whammy' as americans say. having read that advice i don't understand why he's forgotten. gonna give him a good try.

personaly i still can't 'handle' the HRE. great UB but starting things up seems to take forever with this guy. religion, food and production development are difficult to streamline for me. any advice?
 
Asoka? Why?

Best UU in the game :D

UB is decent in BTS now

He is versatile and can play to any victory (I have won domination, space, and diplo with him in warlords and vanilla). He is good for at least 1 if not 2 shrined religions very early, he starts with mining so he can build axes fast and go down the military path as needed. Early military and finance is not an issue. Happiness is address with religion and temples.

His organised trait allows almost a limitless expansion (I play huge maps) and he can swap civics anytime because he is spiritual. If I have a large empire with another organised leader I typically have anarchy for 5 turns at marathon.

My favorite traits are spiritual, industrial, and organised and he has 2 of them.
 
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