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The founding fathers

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - General Discussions' started by Zenon_pt, Jul 2, 2008.

  1. Zenon_pt

    Zenon_pt Civing on the real world

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    Does any one have the complete list of the Founding Fathers?
    I remember: Pocahondas, George Washington, B. Franklin, H. Cortez, Fernando Megalhães.

    Will the game have new "Fathers"?

    How they will be "invited" for Continental-Congress?
     
  2. Niptium

    Niptium Chieftain

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    Yes, I think it's a fair bet that some old founding fathers won't be returning : Pieter Stuyvesant, George Washington, Simon Bolivar are now leaders and not founding fathers anymore.

    There was some new founding fathers tha were named in the previews of late last week of which I can't remember.

    Of the old ones I remember : Jan de Witt, Juan de Sepulvada, Jean de Brébeuf, Cavelier de Lasalle, Henry Hudson, Paul Revere, Magellan, Cortez, Pieter Stuyvesant, Pocahontas, William Brewster, John Paul Jones, Pierre Minuit, Thomas Paine...
     
  3. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

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    From the top of my head I can only add Francis Drake...

    As for the other questions, I guess we all know just as much from reading the press release.
     
  4. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Chieftain

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    Complete list of the originals:

    Exploration
    Francisco Vázquez de Coronado - Makes all existing colonies (of all European powers) in the New World visible.

    Henry Hudson - Doubles production of fur trappers.

    Sieur de La Salle - Any colony with 3 or more people automatically gains a stockade.

    Ferdinand Magellan - All ships gain one extra move point, plus travel from the Pacific to Europe is sped up.

    Hernando de Soto - All land units gain 2 sight points, plus Scouts will no longer be lost on "Lost City Rumor" (goody box) squares.


    Military
    Hernán Cortés - Conquering native villages always results in treasure and all treasure trains are transported to Europe for free, although you must still pay the prevailing tax rate. (Treasure must be taken to Europe to be cashed in and normally you must use your own galleon, or pay the Crown a hefty percent.)

    Francis Drake - Increases combat strength of privateer ships by 50%.

    John Paul Jones - Receive a free Frigate unit.

    Paul Revere - Non-soldiers will defend a colony under attack, if there are no soldiers but there are muskets in the colony stores.

    George Washington - Non-veteran soldiers are promoted to veterans upon winning their first battle. Also, soldiers who are petty criminals are promoted to indentured servants, and indentured servants are promoted to free colonists.

    Political
    Benjamin Franklin - Colonial powers will no longer go to war with you simply because of the political situation in Europe. Negotiations with other colonial powers are more favorable, and peace is always an option. (Normally, when the European nations go to war, their colonies go to war as well. Franklin is not always desirable, since the king gives you some veteran soldiers at the start of a war.)

    Thomas Jefferson - Increases liberty bell production by 50%.

    Thomas Paine - Liberty bell production is increased by a percentage equal to the current sales tax rate of your European parent power.

    Pocahontas - Reduces all tension between your colonies and native villages, and reduces the rate at which it grows.

    Simón Bolívar - The percentage of independence-minded colonists in all of your colonies increases by 20.

    Religious
    Jean de Brebeuf - All missionaries from now on become Expert Missionaries.

    William Brewster - Player can select from a short list of colonist types whenever new colonists appear on the docks in Europe, which will not include criminals or indentured servants.

    Bartolomé de Las Casas - All natives (currently) working in colonies become regular colonists (This can lead to a decrease in effectiveness for agricultural tasks, but an increase in manufacturing or skilled labor.)

    William Penn - Increases cross production by 50%.

    Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda - Attacks on native villages are more likely to result in a "convert" joining your colonies.

    Trade
    Jakob Fugger - All European boycotts on your goods (the result of Boston Tea Party-like dumping of various products) are forgiven.

    Peter Minuit - Native land is free to use. (Normally, natives demand one-time payment for use of their land.)

    Adam Smith - Factory buildings can be built, which generate 50% more processed goods per unit of raw material (compared to non-factories), but actually use less raw material to do it.

    Peter Stuyvesant - Custom House can be built, which automatically sends any amount of selected materials over 50 units straight to Europe, without need for manual shipping.

    Jan de Witt - Allows you to trade with foreign colonies, and adds information to your colonial intelligence screen.



    Also, I wouldn't rule out the colony leaders being in the Congress just yet. Each game can only have one out of the two and it's possible that the other (or even both) might still be part of the list of choices.
     
  5. Niptium

    Niptium Chieftain

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    Which is to say that this game is VERY anglo-centric...

    There could at least be as much Spanish and French colonial founding fathers as their is English ones... In the case of the Dutch, it's a bit more troublesome but I'm sure they could find other people like Pierre Minuit, Johan de Witt, Killiaen van Rensselaer (Rensselaerwijck's founder), Johan Maurits van Nassau (Governor for the WIC of Dutch Brazil), Anthony Colve (Governor of the New Netherlands during the 1673 return of the colony to the Dutch Republic), Cornelis Evertsen de Jongste [the youngest] (Zealand's Admiral during the Franco-Dutch war which lead the 1672-3 expedition against enemy English and French positions in the Guyanas, Caribbeans and then on New Netherland and the Newfoundland fisheries, he reconquered New Netherland from the English which was lost in 1664).

    As far as the French are concerned, you could easily add Jean Talon, Gilles Hocquart (French intendants), Giovanni da Verrazzano/Jacques Cartier/Jean de Nicolet/Pères Joliette et Marquette/the LaVérendrye family (explorers that helped further French knowledge and control of most of North America, Lamotte Cadillac (founder of Détroit, MI), Jean-Baptiste Colbert (French minister of finances, industry and the navy Grand contrôleur général), Pierre Lemoyne d'Iberville, Montcalm (military characters), Kateri Tekatwita (Amerindian convert to catholicism in New France), Marguerite Bourgeoys (French religious), Jeanne Mance (founded the first hospital in Montréal), de Bougainville (French aide-de-camp of Montcalm during the Seven years war, subsequently lead french expeditions around the globe and founded a French colony on the Falkland islands).

    I really don't know enough about Spanish America's colonial history to propose names though.
     
  6. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

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    I never knew Pocahontas was a real person, but then I looked her up on Wikipedia and she was quite a remarkable woman! :o
     
  7. cairnsy44

    cairnsy44 Gooner - first class

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    Marquis de Lafayette would be a good add to that list. De Kalb, Kosziuczko, as well.
     
  8. Zenon_pt

    Zenon_pt Civing on the real world

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    Did anyone saw the pictures of the founding fathers (FF)?

    Pedro Alvares Cabral in the Exploration FF!
    Peter Stuyvesant, Vasco Nunes de Balboa, Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesal.
     
  9. Niptium

    Niptium Chieftain

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    Pieter Stuyvesant is a leader and not a founding father this time around.
     
  10. Zenon_pt

    Zenon_pt Civing on the real world

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    Does anyone knows how many there will be this time?

    For the pictures that came out, I have allready seen:

    Alexander Hamilton: + 3 :hammers: per Town Hall (Trade FF)
    Eli Whitney: +50% Conton In all settlements (Trade FF)
    Lord Baltimore: Increse cross prodution by the taxe rate (Religion FF)
    Addam Smith: 50% Fast prodution of textile mill, coat, rum and cigar factories (Trade FF)
    Pedro Alvares Cabral: -50% Travel time to Europe (Exploration FF) (*Pt)
    Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesal: Reveals all tiles with Burial Grounds and Ancient Ruins (Exploration FF)
    Vasco Nunes de Balboa: + 25% Defence in all settlements (Exploration FF)
    Juan Ponce de Leon: 2x as likely change to get Treasure from Ancient Ruins (Exploration FF)
    Juan de Bernudez: + 1 movement for Caravel, Merchantman and Galleons (Exploration FF)
    Gregorio de Mattos e Guerra: +2LB(Liberty bells) per church and +3LB per Cathedral (? FF) (*Pt)
    Sor Juana: + 3 cross per church and per cathedral (Religion FF)
    William Penn: +3 cross per town hall and strengthens relations with the natives (Religion? FF)
    Herman Cortez: Free stockade in every settlement (de la salle's???) (? FF)
    Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar: + 3 Ind. Servants (? FF)
    Gabriel Lallemant: 50% Faster Production of Church and Cathedral (Religion FF)
    John Harvard: Free Schollhouse in every settlement (hum... not bad) (? FF)
    Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve: Free promotion (Formation), Gunpowder units and +1 movement for converted natives
     
  11. Radbout

    Radbout Chieftain

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    What is quite interesting is that according to the review at jeuxvideo.com and PALGON also mentioned at the front page is that you will not be able to pick your founding fathers like in the original. Instead, you will accumulate points in the categories commerce, exploration, war, politics and religion, and accordingly will be awarded your founding father, not unlike the system of Great Persons in Civ 4. This enables you to plan your strategy by shooting for a certain Founding Father (i.e. by building churches or something, to get a religious advisor). I am really looking forward to seeing this in action, hopefully one of the reviews will show us an example of such a strategy.
     
  12. Knut_Are_M

    Knut_Are_M Chieftain

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    It is a race for the best founding fathers.
    Each founding father requires a sum of points in thier'e category. The first one who reaches those points can choose that founding father. It is not random at all. If you kill off all your oppoents early, you will get almost all the founding fathers, only limited by the time limit.

    Only 1 colony can get each unique founding father in each different game.
    2 But unless you kill off your opponents each colony will allways get some founding fathers. But if you get more points in a specific category you will have the first pick of which exspensive founding fathers you want.

    When you pick a founding father the cost of the founding father is subtracted from your points in that category.
     
  13. Niptium

    Niptium Chieftain

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    You have to add to the list :

    Jan de Witt : -50% tools requred for buildings
    Juan de Sepulveda : Provides 2 converted natives
    Giovanni da Verrazano : Provides a caravel
     
  14. Apocalypto

    Apocalypto Chieftain

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    Hi,

    Here are the ones I've been able to find (my original list is here.)

    Adam Smith | 50% faster production of Textile Mill, Coats/Rum/Cigar Factories.
    Alexander von Humboldt |
    Alexander Hamilton | +3 hammers per Town Hall.
    Betsy Ross | Increases textile production.
    Bortolome de la Casas
    Cyrus McCormick | Increases food and sugar production.
    Diego Velasquez de Cuellar | Provides 3 Indentured Servants
    Eli Whitney | +50% cotton production in all settlements.
    Gabrielle Lellemant | 50% faster production of Church, Cathedral
    Giovanni da Verrazzano | Provides 1 Caravel.
    Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesada | Reveals all tiles with burial grounds and ancient ruins.
    Gregorio de Mattos e Guerra | +2 gold per Church, +3 gold per Cathedral.
    Hernan Cortez | Free Stockade in every settlement.
    Jacques Marquette |
    Jan de Witt | -50% tools required for buildings.
    John Harvard | Free Schoolhouse in every Settlement.
    John Smith | Bonus unknown
    Juan de Bermudez | +1 movement for Caravel, Merchantman, and Galleon.
    Juan de Sepulveda | Provides 2 converted natives.
    Juan Ponce de Leon | 2 times as likely to get treasure from ancient treasure.
    Lewis and Clark
    Lord Baltimore | Increases cross production by the tax rate.
    Marquis de la Fayette |
    Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve | Free promotion for gunpowder units. +1 mov for converts.
    Patrick Henry | Bonus unknown
    Pedro Alvarez Cabral | 50% less travel time to Europe.
    Pocahontas |
    Roger Williams |
    Samuel Adams | Bonus unknown.
    Sor Juana | +3 crosses per Church and Cathedral.
    Thomas Hooker |
    Vasco Nunez de Balboa | +25% defense in all settlements.
    William Brewster |
    William Penn | +3 crosses for every Town Hall. Strengthens relations with natives.


    These are all based on previews and screenshots. For 11 of them, I have not been able to find out what effect they have. If you see anything missing or any mistakes, please tell :)
     
  15. LingLinsRevenge

    LingLinsRevenge Chieftain

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    From this list, the founding fathers are wieghted towards English and Spanish, a few French, and very few Dutch

    sorting list by Nationality

    English
    Adam Smith
    Alexander Hamilton
    Betsy Ross
    Cyrus McCormick
    Eli Whitney
    John Harvard
    John Smith
    Roger Williams
    Samuel Adams
    Lewis and Clark
    Lord Baltimore
    Patrick Henry
    William Brewster
    William Penn
    Thomas Hooker

    Spanish
    Bortolome de la Casas
    Diego Velasquez de Cuellar
    Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesada
    Hernan Cortez
    Juan de Sepulveda
    Juan Ponce de Leon
    Juan de Bermudez
    Pedro Alvarez Cabral
    Sor Juana
    Vasco Nunez de Balboa

    French
    Giovanni da Verrazzano (Italian in service to French crown)
    Gabrielle Lellemant (correct spelling is Gabrielle Lallemant)
    Jacques Marquette
    Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve
    Marquis de la Fayette |

    Brazilian / Portuguese
    Gregorio de Mattos e Guerra

    Dutch or German
    Jan de Witt
    Alexander von Humboldt (German)

    Native
    Pocahontas


    seems out of balance, given the four Nations represented
     
  16. Apocalypto

    Apocalypto Chieftain

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    You may be right, but so was the FF from the original version:

    Out of the 25 total:

    11 were British/American
    3 Dutch
    1 German
    7 Spanish/Portuguese
    2 French
    1 Native American

    I think a better way to categorize them would be in their respective areas of expertise: Exploration, Trade/Economy, Military, Politics, Religion.

    Each category has 5 FF in the original - in other words evenly divided on categories and not nationality.

    I think the Religious category of Civ IV: Colonization has something like 11 FF, and if there's about 52 in total, that seems about right.

    I'll change the list so that it presents them under their category.
     
  17. LingLinsRevenge

    LingLinsRevenge Chieftain

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    While such imbalances do not bother me, I like the notion that these games can serve to provide a broader view than the steriotypical history typically taught. (Elementary history taught in public schools around the world are biased toward the home country's mythologies).

    While I do not expect Sid's Games to correct this, or present a balanced view of world history, I think they could and should balance the 'color commentary'. The nationality of the founding fathers have no game play impact that I am aware of, thus they can do a little research and balance them out.

    If game play is involved, as you are noting, they are balanced. We should expect that --
    But why not spend two man days finding 5 or 6 Dutch founding fathers, and a few more French.

    Cannot hurt really, and it can reduce the US centric view, and teach us all a little!

    for example --
    From http://memory.loc.gov/intldl/awkbhtml/kb-1/kb-1-2-2.html#track1

    Kiliaen Van Rensselaer

    The patroon system was established by the Lords Nineteen in 1628 to try to stem the tide of returning colonists and to encourage settlement in New Netherland. Patroons--or "patrons"--were wealthy Dutchmen who were given extensive tracts of land, powers of local government, and some participation in the fur trade in exchange for settling fifty colonists in New Netherland.

    The only successful patroonship was Rensselaerswyck, which was established by the Amsterdam diamond merchant Kiliaen Van Rensselaer in the environs of present-day Albany. Van Rensselaer sent colonists, tools, and livestock to the colony. By the 1660s, when New Netherland passed to the British, Rensselaerswyck had about forty houses and two hundred inhabitants. It extended over one million acres encompassing all of the present-day counties of Albany and Rensselaer, New York.
     
  18. LingLinsRevenge

    LingLinsRevenge Chieftain

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    I see that there are 52 founding fathers -- of which 34 for are confirmed -- so maybe they will balance out
     
  19. Apocalypto

    Apocalypto Chieftain

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    I totally agree with you about the learning part! That's one of the features that made me a big Sid fan in the first place. I love history in general, so the quotes that appear with each new tech in Civ IV and all the info about techs, units etc. make the game educational and fun. I find the age of exploration to be especially interesting, which is probably what made me a big Colonization fan back when it came out, and ever since I must admit.

    Of course game developers have to think about the general game player when they make these games, and so if you are above average interested in history (which I suspect you are ;)) then there probably won't be any big surprises. I can understand why they stick with the most famous ones, it would be kind of strange if they made 52 founding fathers that nobody have ever heard about. My guess is that they would try to include all nationalities, but ultimately, they cannot exclude the really famous and arguably most important ones, like Adams, Jefferson, Paine, Washington (though they've made Washington and Adams leaders in this version).

    A have also wondered why Portugal was excluded, because historically they had an impact in that region of the world during this period. Their Bandeirantes went on gold missions in Brazil, which incidentally would make for a great "excuse" to introduce gold in the game...

    But I guess they have to narrow it down ultimately, and the final decision is of course their to make.
     
  20. LingLinsRevenge

    LingLinsRevenge Chieftain

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    I know that there are other threads where the lack of Portugal is discussed in great detail. Someone could make a case for the Swedes, (Delaware). But as you say, the designers have to draw a line some where. In my mind, while the settlement of Brazil by Portugal is important, I think of Portugal's Age of Discovery directed towards Africa, India and Asia. Also, the timing is a bit off. Portugal's Age of Discovery begins in 1415 with the conquest of Ceuta. (well before the game start)
    The counter argument is that Portugal claims Brazil in 1500 (during the game time). But, if they add in Portugal, then I suspect that people would want the inclusion of Africa, etc.

    Whether people like it or not, the basic mechanics of Colonization are very much based on simplistic notions about the origins of the American Revolution, and not at all based on the Dutch, Spanish or French situations.

    For example, there is little representation of the social circumstances that brought about the Haitian Revolution, and I would be quite surprised if Toussaint Louverture or Jean-Jacques Dessalines are in the missing Founding Fathers.

    As for your comment
    As best I can tell, the gold you refer to would be roughly represented by the explorers find gold from lost cities, and moving them back to Europe.

    Granted, it would be nice chrome in the game to call out the Bandeirantes as special units that were very good at finding and recovering gold.

    I am sure the the Mod Makers would welcome that suggestion -- is a good idea.

    I am very much looking forward to the mod systems that will come out.

    Speaking of mods.
    I would love to see a mod based on the book 1491. If I had the time and talent required to do it, I would create a mod that starts with the continents much more crowded and the Natives much stronger. So much so that the European have great difficultly establishing colonies. Contact with Europeans spread disease, weakening the Natives. This forces the Native tribes to form alliances with the European Player against other stronger Native Groups.

    I cannot imagine that this historical model will be in the game, as I note above. The traditional view is one of a sparsely populated North America. More recent research shows a different story, the central game will not have the nastier bits of colonial history. (i.e. Slave trade, genocide, depopulation, war against civilains, etc)

    The designers have to market and sell the game -- too accurate a depiction of colonial history is likely to be considered too controversial, and, on some level, too sad for good marketing.
     

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