The FUTURE!

ExpiredReign

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Did that title grab your attention? Good, now this is either great news or a mistake, depending on where your values lie.

Following on from the work @Gazebo has done with the Community Patch DLL, he has PM'd me with the desire to work together in creating the 'balance' patch mod for that DLL.

He recognizes the great steps forward that CEP has made in that regard and didn't want to re-invent anything or duplicate efforts on the same goal.
My response is of course, "fantastic, let's do this", however it would be impertinent of me to presume everyone else thinks that way. So, what do you think of the idea?

My goal would be to leave this mod at the stage that it is now, maybe someone else could use it to build something or perhaps some of the other contributors might return and want to start from a familiar place. At any rate that would mean starting a fresh mod with most of the code, that works, in place and new code that leverages the DLL added to make a new faster, slicker mod. Perhaps named to reflect it's heritage and also to assist users in finding the mod that carries on from where this leaves.

I, or Gazebo, would also make this a Steam release so those that are subscribed to Communitas will have somewhere to go for updates. No-one can do anything for those users at the moment as the Steam release is solely under Thalassicus's control.

As this is supposed to be a 'community' mod, I thought everyone deserves some input into this decision. Just to let you know though, even if everyone wants to keep this mod as seperate entity and not join with any other developers, I feel the need to join with something that is progressing, not just limping along. I would therefore drop my role from here whatever the decision, not that would make a big issue.:D

We will look into getting a new sub-forum, like this one, to handle the varied areas of discussion that a 'balance' mod would need: Leaders, policies, faith, etc. That way the desired discussion necessary to truly community based mod would remain and not have good ideas lost in the onslaught of disparate discussions.

Thoughts?

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Other than piety-religion and a couple of other overhauls and bug fixes here and there that I haven't checked or can help identify, I have basically done all I can with the existing mod and mod tools that I know how to do easily. There's a few CEP features that could use a fresh coat of paint, but it's basically done unless major coders come back to work on the project.

Given that the dll tools provide a lot of options that we would want, or have wanted for a long time, to use for this moving forward anyway, and given that gazebo generally acknowledges that CEP has some ground work worth using (benefiting from the years of argument and experimentation we have already done), I would prefer that's the direction this moves going forward. We could benefit from a broader community input and more tools available to fix religion/piety and ensure compatibility, if not integration, with CSD and EUI that way to get around some of the more troublesome bits of BNW/CEP.
 
PS, did you integrate the bug fixes at all into the existing 3.16 version? I haven't checked github in a while. I'd at least like to leave it in a semi-functional state while this other project gets off the ground.
 
I haven't touched the GitHub repo for over a month, and won't be able to for some time yet. EricB though does have contributor access and has made some bugfixes that are in the basecode.

I will move all your changes into the core files as soon as possible.

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I'm kinda sad that my unconstructive whining isn't going to be put to use, I almost felt useful there for a sec, but if you're all happy and stuff actually gets done I'm not going to complain. (Yeah right, lol ^^)

Edit: By the way I was under the impression that the Community mod was just a couple of guys that were extremely afraid of changing anything at all. They want everything better but still want everything to be exactly as it was in BWN (how that would possibly make sense, I have no clue). But I probably got confused and mixed it up with something else, as always. So could you maybe explain exactly what this is going to involve?
 
I've been reading the Community Mod thread with interest, seeing how it addresses the most fundamental problems. It's probably the best work that's been done for Civ 5 in the modding community besides this project.

Since CEP has always done its best to work with the kind of issues that the original game has had with the DLL, it would be a challenge to adjust the mod to the Community Mod, while a new approach would have that foundation to start from. If the AI is a hell of a lot smarter, then the whole paradigm changes with certain parts of the game, like giving the AI free promotions or significantly faster tech speeds. If they're more efficient, then that kind of stuff would make it nearly impossible for the poor humans XD

Since you guys have been more involved and have your own ideas, it would make more sense to take a new project on. I'd agree with paying respect to this effort, since it has been years in the running, but if Thal isn't going to be actively involved then it's best if you guys took on your own project. Maybe something like Community Balance Mod with a section thanking Thalassicus for his efforts over the years in the CEP and CEG projects and for inspiring this continued effort.
 
Funak, I'd say that your whining was mostly constructive, I incorporated some of your suggestions into changes I made, and they may inform progress on this project as it should end up borrowing heavily from CEP's progress (but not exclusively or entirely).

This new community mod is going to be two things at once

1) a basic dll patch which fixes bugs and adds mod functions and upon which the balance mod depends.

2) A modular balance mod that uses some of those functions. At the moment, much of the input from CEP/GEM/VEM will be considered, but there may be voices which want a more modest adjustment and ideas that CEP hasn't gone down as a path, either because it wasn't possible (unit AI, use of CSD) or because it wasn't heavily discussed and agreed upon (religion). Hence a modular approach will be best moving forward so that changes can be disabled or deployed. (like what whoward does). We could basically build a CEP mod over-top of a more modest balance mod if desired, there would just be some additional tools to make that "work" correctly or better. But I think there's some agreement that CEP did some very good or interesting things that can be run with, and some not so good things that won't be.

So far that project has done or made possible things like this:

a) improved settler locations for the AI (I'm not familiar enough with the code changes to say if this will work with any changes to terrain yields like what CEP does).
b) added some mod functions, like religious resistance from temples/shrines or airborne infantry that can drop and attack in the same turn. Whoward's mod list is extensive and some of its functions we will want to incorporate into a major mod project.
c) somewhat improved the unit AI and unit mix
d) fixed the science overflow bug
e) fixed krakatoa (CEP did that too)

I was one of the voices pushing for the community patch to avoid "balance" considerations and focus on mechanical issues primarily because I figured a larger community project would distract from fixing those. My main concern was that it would drown out the thread, not that it shouldn't happen. It could proceed alongside it without any major incident for those of us who want one, and given the popularity of VEM-CEP, the idea should be to combine the forces here and draw off what we have learned from playing the game the way of Thal. ;)

Gazebo and some others have enough coding ability that they could adapt what lua functions are needed from CEP if adopted into the dll and the dll itself should already allow us to do a number of things we've wanted in this project but were unable to achieve "unless it was a dll mod". My guess is we would junk much of the interface and use EUI instead, except where there isn't an obvious incompatibility so that may cut down on the amount of work needed to adapt it. But Thal wrote some awesome tools and code that we may continue to have use for (plus a map script).
 
The way I see it is this, if we want CivV to be the best game it can be, all of us need to pool our ideas into the one place. We can't look to Firaxis to give fixes and more DLCs so let's do the next best thing.
No one needs to feel snubbed, let's just change the location of our discussions. I have seen enough of Gazebo's work to have confidence that this new mod will move ahead properly.
Wherever Thal is I'm sure he would like the idea of his mod progressing, even if it has a major overhaul and face lift.
One thing that I am deeply concerned about is the Steam users. I will do my best to ensure the good work Thal has done for those users isn't wasted.

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I read the abbreviation DLL a lot above.
How does the future of this mod/the new mod looks for non-Windows users, i.e. Mac and Linux players?
 
Best people to ask might be the dll mod group. I'm not on a Mac/Linux to know what the issues are myself converting it for those purposes. The project dll modification is fixing a lot of underlying bugs within the base game and seeking to add some... logical sense to many modification requirements that are missing or hacky at present. Porting that code over to mac/linux uses is over my head for how easily that conversion is done.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=527898

This is the forum thread for the new project. There will be new threads spawning up soon within that project (I outlined a lot of the subjects that will be up for debate and adjustment).

I'm updating the wiki for CEP so that there's a common reference point for people to mine it for ideas first (or criticize what they don't want) so some may not get up to speed at first. CEP is a vast mod and the wiki hasn't been thoroughly updated really since BNW came out and work on GEM stopped. That's not really "my" fault, but I was apparently the main person doing it before other than Thal making what I put on there more interesting to look at than a wall of text for 28 critical damage. Now that work has largely completed or stopped on CEP, updates to the wiki should not take very long to accurately display as much as was changed as possible for people who do not use the mod or were interested in examining what kinds of changes were done.

For fans of CEP/GEM/VEM, what should be done moving forward is to examine what changes were done, broadly or specifically that are particularly good and should be included in any balance modification. Thal and Co have done tremendous work with this game and project and what works very well should be preserved moving forward. I personally favor the unit/navies/policy/leaders/resources/buildings changes in particular as an overall thing, if not perfectly happy with some of them, they're a vast improvement over the base game, and some of the new wonders are excellent additions, things like that will be what we would want to fight to include.

Note - Do not focus on UI improvements. Most likely we will be using EUI and tossing the CEP interface adjustments, except for the unit promotion flags, as much as possible. If there's stuff we absolutely need from CEP's interface in order to keep something else from CEP we want to use, we will figure out how to make it work with EUI or the dll. But that shouldn't be seen as a priority. The tooltip writer and things like that may be of great service. Keep them in mind but don't make it the top thing in mind.

We should also not expect it to be "CEP+" We could make that as a modification too over top of more modest adjustments or instead of adjustments that are not seasoned to our tastes. But for now, the idea would be to find what bricks we want to keep from CEP while redoing the foundation and then finding some new bricks that we can use as well because of changes to the dll or fresh eyes.
 
@ExpiredReign OP:

Yes please!

I've been keeping an eye on Gazebo's Community Patch thread and think it'd be awesome if we could combine CEP into that and really get a polished product out of it.
 
Further to what @mystikx21 said, the new mod will be the logical successor to CEP. But! it will not be the next version of CEP.

The amount of work that has gone into VEM/GEM/CEP by a huge number of contributors, under the direction of Thalassicus should not be under-estimated. The lines of lua code for instance are in the 1000's. All those that have contributed in the past, especially Thal, should be lauded for the tremendous work they have done.
However, the amount of legacy code from all those different iterations is likewise tremendous and for us to move forward some drastic surgery is needed.

As painful as it may be for some this surgery is needed otherwise the patient will die.

The goal will be to strip out every bit of lua code that can be implemented some other way. ie by DLL or some other core mechanic that can be manipulated to our will.
Any lua code that doesn't have a replacement and is deemed invaluable will either be 'fixed' or rewritten.

What that means is the actual data changes that made CEP what it is should still exist in either there existing format or slightly tweaked to fit the new direction. Hopefully this means all the users of CEP should only see improvements not problems. (he says with fingers crossed and a hint of desperation in his voice)

@zeemeerman2 You raise a valid point. To be honest, I'm not sure as to the extent of dependability this new beast will have on a DLL. Obviously there will be some, 5%, 25% we can't say at this point. I will discuss this further with the others once we get a working team and routine in place.
It might possibly mean a 'lite' version being made that leaves out all the hooks to DLL functions. Though that does sound to me as a poor option.
Rest assured, as I have said many times in other posts, I feel a measure of indebtedness to ALL the users of CEP and I will do my hardest to see they ALL have something to use.

To everyone else that is unsure about this let me say this: from what I can see @Gazebo, who will logically take the lead role, is an admirer of what CEP has acheived and he isn't likely to want to alienate anyone by 'stuffing it up'. Indeed the fact he has made the approach to collaborate shows his desire to keep a measure of CEP in the new mod. So can I encourage everyone to provide the same level of input, both criticism and praise, with the new mod as you have with CEP.

The future is rosy and it is now.

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Expired Reign - this is great news and a very good idea. I was hoping this would happen. I think it's the best way to move forward.
 
I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but frankly the 'balance patch' side of this new project doesn't excite me all that much. (The mechanical fixes do, mind you.)

Will there be a legacy version of CEP left to download? I'm pretty happy with what we've currently got (plus a few personal tweaks).
 
Edit: By the way I was under the impression that the Community mod was just a couple of guys that were extremely afraid of changing anything at all.

Change is my greatest fear. (If Whoward and I were truly afraid of changing anything at all, that might make us the most useless modders of all time.) :)

As others have noted, the Community Patch will have two parts: the 'engine' patch (DLL modifications without subjective changes) and the 'game' patch (subjective changes). The 'engine' patch will not have a direct impact on player choices (i.e. gameplay), in that it will not edit leaders, buildings, etc. It will, however, make the AI much smarter and fix lingering bugs. So there's that.

To be clear, the Community Patch will not be a carbon copy of CEP built on a dll. I'd say, to guess, that 75% of the features of CEP will be retained. Some will be replaced with functions that can only be accomplished via the DLL, and some, such as the legacy code, will be ditched entirely.

It should also come as no surprise that the Community Patch is BNW-only. We aren't a large enough team to make versions for each iteration of CiV.

Cheers,
G
 
@albie my intention was to have expired upload the bug fixes I did on top of the existing version on github and maybe leave my more extensive changes as an option after that as a "completed" project (call it 3.17 or something). Piety and religion aren't done and part of the appeal of the mechanical changes is to implement some ideas to fix them. That were previously not possible with existing tools.
 
That would be my suggestion, as well. Out of respect for the work by Thal that came before, we should leave the last version of what he produced available for archival purposes and for those who might prefer that version.

Any further changes beyond that would be best as a new mod.
 
If I may state again my desired goal for CEP.

Using the edits done by @mystikx21 over the last few weeks, I will update the GitHub repo to reflect those changes and release a new version that is by it's heart and soul, CEP. That version will be available both via GitHub and here in this forum.

All work on CEP will then cease, at least by me, mystikx21 and anyone else that wants to shift focus to the Community Balance mod.

This forum should be kept 'as is' for a sort of reminder of the great work done by Thalassicus.

Also, if anyone wants to pick up the mod and run with it, they can and there will be a working mod from which to start.

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I had major issues with it as it was and modded it heavily and there were whole sections of the game that the project had not yet addressed (ideologies, belief rebalance, culture wins, etc), but I realize I'm no Thal. ;) And that my views on balance could be.. different.

I would be perfectly fine with just introducing the bug fixes that would be needed to a relatively completed project that people could play to avoid the most obvious problems with that version (and that should help if Thal or someone else wants to continue work on it later on) and then setup the other changes as an alternate both to work with on this new project or to use while it gets underway for those who might find them interesting.
 
I think the bugfixes are a great addition, but, the other changes should probably be left out (if that's okay).
 
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