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The FUTURE!

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by ExpiredReign, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. whoward69

    whoward69 DLL Minion

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    Change no (or I wouldn't have a web-site with over 200 mods on it and a DLL that currently has around 170 options), forced change yes

    It's a difference in philosophy.

    If you have 50 changes in one monolithic mod, you have to get everyone to agree on those 50 changes before you release the mod. And even then, on the rule of "you can't please all of the people all of the time" some of the mod users will be unhappy at things they got but didn't want, some didn't get things they wanted, and other had to compromise on those things they did get.

    If, however, you build a framework to enable each of those changes to be implemented as a single mod (so there will be 50 mods) and then let each user pick and choose which of those 50 mods they want to use, you can have the best of both worlds - a mod that changes nothing (the empty framework) but that can also change everything (the user decided contents of the framework)

    Of course you don't have to have 50 mods, a group can get together and use the framework to make one "mega-mod", that contains the democratically chosen contents to put into the framework.

    HTH

    W
     
  2. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    That approach also has the benefit of making it easier to test for bugs.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Wasn't trying to be rude.
    The problem with with your "pick and choose" idea however is that everything needs to be balanced both seperatly and together. Which seems rather unrealistic to me, but then again I'm not a programmer.
    That is the bonus with having one huge mod that changes everything with no support for seperating. People have to take it or leave it but it would actually be possible to make actual substantial changes to the game without sacrificing balance for it.
     
  4. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Technically not everything has to be balanced separately and together.

    Say we do 50 things, we could pick only 34 of them to go together as a single package, say, because the other 16 won't work with it or aren't well balanced within that setup.

    CEP did a lot more than 50 things, but I would expect a similar rate that if we do 300 things, that only say 180 of them go together. Most of the changes I will be proposing will draw on CEP balance issues that occurred from the mod's changes (to fix problems it created), with the intention that they will be used together rather than individually. A lot of CEP's changes were "we changed X, which made Y better too", which was the goal in some cases.
     
  5. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    For what it's worth, I Skype'd Thal last night. Although the purpose of my call wasn't to find out if he is coming back, just to see if he is well, it is quite possible he may return at some point and pick this back up.
    It's simply a case of him finding a new job a couple of months ago and making sure he stays in the good books with the new employer. Modding isn't high on the priorities at this time.

    What that means for everyone unsure about which selection of changes to go for, I don't know.

    I find myself vacillating between two extremes at times, W's view of a 'framework to enable options' is very appealing but then again having a group of related and tested changes all placed together is also good. That's the beauty of option!

    So we may have a mod with x number of fixed changes and y number of options up against a collection of z options or one monolithic mod with everything chosen for you.
    Take your pick.

    @mystikx21
    Could you give me a link to the absolutely final changes you made so I can start adding them in? I may actually be able to get back to my computer quicker than I thought.

    Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk
     
  6. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Final changes I made - change log

    Bug fix only version plus or minus a couple I may have missed later.

    That "final" version still has a few things I could change around here and there, if there is demand for it to be completed here as an alternative. Thal can certainly do as he wishes from there or seek compatibility and contribute to the broad project if his time is limited. His ideas are always welcome even if I end up seasoning them very differently.

    I'm inclined to say what we will probably do with the "community patch" would be to do a list of changes, extensive, with some being sets of changes themselves eg, unit stats, tile values, policy tree(s), with probably a set of leaders changes as well, and then come back and select the best and most broadly appealing and well-balanced grouping, to make into a mega-mod and leave the others as optional add-ons that will be strongly advised and that will be compatible and should be balanced with the overall mod set in mind in most cases.
     
  7. whoward69

    whoward69 DLL Minion

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    Balance is a subjective value judgement - see comment about being unable to please all of the people all of the time - one man's "balanced" is another woman's "totally out of whack"

    Even with only 50 on/off variables, only evaluating them all together, and being able to test one combination a second (impossible) it will take someone the best part of 36 million years to validate their personal view of balanced (2^50 / 60 / 60 / 24 / 365). Balance will always be "a gut feeling" and never a scientific approach. It's just as valid to have a gut feeling for a framework model as the monolithic model.
     
  8. whoward69

    whoward69 DLL Minion

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    You can discuss, delegate and develop (sub-groups of) changes individually and then merge the selected ones into the "mega-mod" relatively painlessly
     
  9. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    That's the plan I'm thinking of yeah, do changes, check for bugs, merge them, check for bugs, check for obvious balance problems, etc.

    I'm going through CEP's code as best I can to figure out what's in it that would be needed to make certain features work if we wanted to use them. Most of it may have to be tossed or replaced for compatibility but should be superseded by what's already done in the dll. And then I'll put up some threads over in that forum tomorrow for each of the different components we may look to make changes to (leaders, economy, combat, etc) and see if we can't compartmentalize changes in each section. That should also put forward things we may need from the dll or things that we can now do from it. I am presently dizzy looking over code as it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot.
     
  10. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    The first task on my list is to check ALL the CEP lua functions, including new events, and see which ones are:

    1. Already duplicated in the DLL
    2. Not really needed anymore
    3. Needed but don't yet have a DLL copy, then make one
    4. Needed but don't yet have a DLL copy, and if it can't be added to the DLL, fix the lua

    Generally weed out as much lua as possible.
    To be clear I'm talking about the lua that is directly related to game mechanic functionality. ie we want to make this building do something it can't do in vanilla so a lua function was made. Not the whole batch of custom lua code like 'stories' or the 'flag promotions'.

    Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk
     
  11. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I sent gazebo a preliminary list of those but I haven't been playing with the lua as much and I didn't look in every directory for changes. I'd leave that to your end to set up.
     
  12. Dunkah

    Dunkah Emperor

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    This is wonderful news. I am behind the new project 100%.

    I have always attempted to use CSD unsuccesfully and have attempted to use Whowards P&M mods all the time.

    So anything that allows the use of both of those along with even any of the CEP stuff will be worth it.

    Just having a new group of motivated programmers will be wonderful.

    The work Gazeebo and Whoward have already done is awesome.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    One of my issues with the mod has always been the speed drop when using it, its very noticeable compared to the base game.

    So if a DLL version of it can be made that provides me near equivalent performance to the base game that is very appealing to me.

    I am also in the camp that felt that the mod has made too many changes (I said the same thing in the last version of the mod as well), but that has always been an ongoing debate within the group.
     
  14. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    @Stalker0

    You will be pleased to know @Gazebo has already ported over a large proportion of the lua functions to C++ and we will be trimming out unwanted lua functions as we progress further. All of this means a 'lean, mean mod'.

    Check out the progress in the Community Balance Patch discussion.

    Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk
     
  15. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Hi! Haven't posted anything since months, but what happens now just can't be left uncommented :)
    I'm 100% happy to see there's a sucessor project in the making, and while I'll surely miss Thal, the new team and your approach looks extremely promising. I really hope you guys succeed, for while I haven't played Civ5 and CEP for quite some time now, they will always be something very special to me. I hope I'll find time soon again to try the first versions of the new mods!

    Excuse me for disappearing again and again, but I have a very demanding job in healthcare that occupies me for 60-80 hours a week. I have tried repeatedly to contribute something more to this mod than mere opinions, but due to my limited total gaming time of 5-10 hours per week I failed miserably.

    Nevertheless, I'm very eager to see where this leads to :) Keep up the good work, and rest assured that there are many more (currently) silent fans of your work who will be very happy to see that there's some fresh new project around!
     
  16. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    @Tomice

    You should never feel opinions, yours or otherwise, are valued based on the quantity. They are based on quality and you have always been a valued contributor to the VEM/GEM/CEP project. :)

    I too hope you get a chance to contribute to the new project, whatever you can suggest will be taken onboard for discussion.

    Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk
     
  17. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Thx! I just wanted you to know that even if these boards are relatively silent sometimes, there are still hundreds or even thousands of fans out there who greatly appreciate what you guys are doing here.
     
  18. Solitude102

    Solitude102 Chieftain

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    Indeed. I don't post much, but I definitely appreciate all the work that goes through with these mod. I am very much looking towards the future.
     
  19. Sesostris

    Sesostris Chieftain

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    Same here, looking eagerly forward to the new incarnation of this mod. Should probably change my title to 'expectant lurker'. :)
     

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