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The Galleass

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Gidoza, Apr 13, 2019.

  1. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
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    So the Cruiser thread rather unintentionally brought up questions about the Galleass that at least at first glance seemed to be worth some discussion; however, we want to focus on Cruisers in that thread, so I'm opening a new topic here.

    I'll highlight some points of interest that could be used as jumpers for discussion on the matter.


    1. Caravels get Ocean movement but the Galleass does not. Is this reasonable and should it be changed? (responses could include giving ocean movement, +1 Movement, or other)

    2. The Dromon seems to have more survivability for its Era against ground ranged than the Galleass does for its Era. This seems to make city assaults more difficult.

    3. There was other stuff, but my mind suddenly blanked. Mention it and I'll put it here...
     
  2. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

    Joined:
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    Giving to Galleass Ocean movement would allow them to attack and then hide from land ranged units, which is a significant survavibility boost.

    However, I don't have a problem for the Caravel/Galleass era to be a peacefull era naval-wise, more centered on exploration and discoveries than war.
    But I agree that Galleass are not worth my hammers, and usually not worth the gold of upgrade for my Dromons if I have some, so I'm not against a buff either.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    Venice, California
    Galleasses weren't deep-water vessels, and shouldn't be here just for the sake of equivalencies. However, it is a relatively weak unit — in my opinion the weakest vessel in the game. In RL, they were pretty sturdy, allowing Venice to maintain a fleet long after the appearance of technologically superior vessels. I would boost its defense numbers as a start, and then consider some combination of boosting its offense vs vessels (not cities or land units), as well as lowering its cost.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
    pineappledan, vyyt and Moi Magnus like this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So the first fundamental question we have to answer: Should Galleasses have ocean travel? Everything about their balance hinges on this question.

    Personally, I'm a no on this one. I like the factor of Caravels being the premier scouting ship of its time, signaling the age of a new era. Further, I think it gives melee naval a good "coming of age" point. Humans natural build caravels to explore, and then upgrade them to Corsairs. That gives you a strong melee naval base that you can use throughout the ages.

    So if we stick with that answer, it becomes very hard to balance the Galleass. Caravels will always destroy them, as the mobility difference is enormous. And if you bump the ship stats too heavily, then it becomes too dominant against land, as all ranged ships have been one time or another when we have tried stat bumps.


    So I think the best solution....is cost. Make them cheap to build, cheap to upgrade. Give the dromon something easy to upgrade to, let them have some purpose for a while, until its time to upgrade them into their full fledged version (the frigate). Using cost as a factor still gives them a niche while acknowledging that a ocean bearing caravel will also be a superior ship.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    You could bump offensive stats vs ships, but that probably over-complicates it, and needlessly so.

    You start with cost, then defense vs caravels. Mobility is 4v3 right? Ocean travel still leaves them next to the galleass once they attack. Make them strong enough not to be essentially one-shotted. Have enough cheap ones near a post-attack caravel, and the caravel's in trouble.
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Malaga (Spain)
    Galleases can't maneuver proficiently, given that the sea tiles are often one tile wide. Even with bigger numbers, they can't use their power against a single target, be it a city or a vessel.

    More than they are so easily taken by caravels, my issue with the galleas is that it does not seem to perform well for any duty. Skirmishers hit it hard. Cities do not seem to care about its ranged attack, without promotions (as with siege units, practice leads to mastery, but it's harder to practice with galleases, hard to cover them from enemy trirremes).
     
    bigcat88 likes this.

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