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the game lacks story and dynamism

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kornelm1978, Oct 29, 2016.

  1. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    I feel like Civ5 had the right amount of dynamism. Friendships end when interests diverge. Ed Beach pulled off a pretty convincing inflection point system where you can reliably be friends for 30-100 turns most of the time (and of course there will be some Civs you can stay friendly to for much longer if both Civs don't really come to blows over borders or city states), but you know generally, won't last forever as eras change and the AI go for their VC or you fight over something or the other. That's really dynamic.

    Not to beat a deadhorse but my problem with Civ4 diplomacy was it was anything but dynamic. It's too stable. Was fine for the time, but after Civ5 it's hard to go back to AIs so easily manipulated with gold and switching to their desired religion and what not to appease them.

    Civ6 is curiously missing many of the stabilizing modifiers Ed added in Civ5. It's even missing the inflection points and ideological conflicts in Brave New World. So my feel is they are going in eventually and they probably ran out of time adding them. Still curious nonetheless since it seems like a no brainer to build on the Civ5 system and layer these transparent agendas on top, but I guess they really did rebuild everything from the ground up for Civ6 or else those features should have been easily carried over from 5.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2016
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  2. VirtualMark

    VirtualMark Chieftain

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    Thinking for yourself is an important and desirable skill to have. It shows that you're not a sheep, and can make decisions based on your own knowledge and experience.

    And the flaw in your post is that it's a well known logical fallacy, "appeal to authority". The reviews may say it's good, but that's just their opinions and adds no weight to your argument. So as your argument is entirely based upon a fallacy, it's therefore dismissed wholesale.
     
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  3. TehJumpingJawa

    TehJumpingJawa Warlord

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    Being able to recognise sarcasm is an important and desirable skill too.
     
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  4. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    The former hardly mattered - you're talking about gifting approximately 400 gold for +1 (on top of my head), with a cap of +4 - and the latter alienates all those with other religions. Which is exactly the point; you get stable-ish - not as stable as you are imagining though - friends and enemies and neutrals, and every single AI has such a thing for themselves. In my current game - see my signature - I have been the lifelong friend of Christian Gondor. But Vice City converted to Hinduism, and has since become our enemy, having now declared war twice on Gondor. Khand, on another continent, is a nominal ally of us, having fought in a shared war with the entire Christian world against Mordor (which has now been exiled to another continent, where Sauron proceeded to conquer New California and rebuild his empire), but Khand has always been occupied by Razorbeard who keeps attacking Khand from the south. Khand's south-eastern lands have been razed some time ago, and are now being colonised by others, who are profiting from this war.

    This is a tiny tiny snapshot of the current game I am playing. I could write many paragraphs more - of how Helga Steele and Adolph Hitler have struck up a defensive pact and have been close allies for a long time, despite having different religions, of how Liberty City has conquered its entire continent and is now successfully invading another continent, of how San Andreas tried to do this too but eventually collapsed into rebellion... - and I could write of the personalities, allies, and enemies of the AI's. They are characters, with their own goals, and so forth.

    Neither Civilization V nor Civilization VI comes even close to that. Not by a long, long shot. And could their AI ever be so successful? Conquering a whole continent and successfully invading another? Seeing their entire homeland conquered, but managing to establish a toehold on another continent and rise up as a strong power again, there? No, they couldn't.
     
  5. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    i have played it from vanilla to bts and mods
    AI behavior was hardwired to diplo modifiers and could be manipulated easily
     
  6. Ranbir

    Ranbir Civ junkie

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    I think unique buildings/units/traits have progressively got more rigid/specific for the civilizations and are harming the series. It's encouraging set play styles with set civilizations when the earlier civilizations were literally blank slates that you would shape in your own image, with nothing influencing the decisions you made except whatever was happening in the game at the time, circumstances.

    I remember for 1 and 2 that I'd always rename my leader and civilization. That was a very big deal, I was leading my own civilization and putting them through the test of time. Now it feels like I'm playing a much more linear historical track.
     
  7. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    I think we're talking timescales here. Generally people who like Civ4 diplo liked its predictability and stability, Civ5 had after the two expansions inflection point based diplomacy. DoF lasts reliably 30-100 turns, usually around 100 turns (so renewed about 2x on average). So about a third of the game you can be friendly, but new eras pushes new geopolitical arrangements. It's in many ways similar to what you're describing but it happens reliably at certain points in the game. I understand some people don't like the fact that a Civ they cultivated a close working relationship with early on picked Autocracy in the end game whilst the player went for Freedom and theres enmity, but that is really part of the fun and interest. You have to adapt your diplomacy to the changing world. And there's certainly no reason for the player to not go autocracy to keep that friendship going. That's a trade off obviously between the benefits of staying friends with an autocracy AI vs. the policies available under Freedom. But There's a bit more push from the AI and not all pull from the player.

    Back on topic, Civ6 is currently lacking these inflection points as well as the stabilizing modifiers that were in BNW. I'm hopeful they will be added in as the underlying diplomatic system itself feels like the Civ5 one just with more transparent modifiers. Why these modifiers are not there is anyone's guess.

    But I'll also keep my mind open for if the inflection point based diplomacy don't make it back in to vanilla Civ6. It was a nice feature in BNW, but so long as they beef up the modifiers and tweak the hidden agenda system so players aren't getting dinged early in the game for it for 'no apparent reason' then I'm fine too. Actually I suggested in another thread the hidden agenda could work like an inflection point in itself. It starts off with no penalties, but ramps up mid-game when players has had a chance to figure out what it is, so relationships will alter as the hidden agendas become known.

    I just find the current system too arbitrary and opaque, so everyone ends up hating everyone else.
     
  8. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Sounds like a repeat of the mistake made with BNW. Civ V was good for storytelling for most of its run, but BNW just turned every late-game into exactly the same struggle between three ideologies, as the mechanic had too strong an influence on AI behaviour and would overrule relations built game-long with civs that adopted a different ideology without a lot of effort to maintain them.
     
  9. El Caballerion

    El Caballerion King

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    I would love to see more random events happen based on your current government/civics form, similar to the random events in Europa Universalis 4.
     
  10. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

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    What a silly thread. This game has no more or less story than any other iteration of the series. That is not what these games are about, and while the games have problems, this is just looking in the wrong places. I suspect you might find the same lac of story in the previous versions if you went back to them. People change over time and sometimes a genre that you love at 15 you might not love at 25.
     
  11. Takfloyd

    Takfloyd Prince

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    Maybe if you actually read this "silly" thread you would realize that it's your post that is silly and contributes nothing to the discussion.
     
  12. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

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    I read about half of it and gave up in disgust. There is nothing here, just a bunch of people rambling about finding a game soulless when they spend their time perusing forums. I'll give you a pro-tip as someone who has been gaming since 1991.

    You will never find a game full of soul if you spend your days picking through forums figuring out how every nook and cranny works. It destroys the immersion. So you need to decide up front is this a game I am going to play for that, or a game I am going to treat in a more abstract way like a puzzle and try to figure everything out. If you do the later you will always feel the game lacks story.
     
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  13. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    I am the author of the tread, and my experience is as long as yours and I really played thousands of hours in strategy games. Thus your patronizing is not really neccessary for me. And in my opinion the immersion is really spoiled by the design, what I backed up with many examples.
     
  14. MistyRonin

    MistyRonin Warlord

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    I'm a bit clueless. What does the OP mean by "the game lacks story"?

    I never thought of Civilization, as a series of games with its own defined story. Basically you build your own, following the rails of history (that's depicted by the tech and culture tree in Civ VI).
     
  15. Staal

    Staal Warlord

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    It seems to me diplomacy / World Congress type expansion is likely?
     
  16. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    story...you do realize this is a turn based strategy game about starting a civilization from scratch right?!
     
  17. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    If you bothered to read what I meant byt "story", you would not add that comment.
     
  18. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    you didn't mention story once just stuck it in the thread title. lol what a fail of a thread :smug:
     
  19. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    You lost me when you said that Civ6 gameplay is always the same but somehow 4's isn't.
     
  20. Karmah

    Karmah King Supporter

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    I stopped reading at 'civ4'. Laggard corner of despair won' t waste my time this time. Incredible how three and a half nostalgic guys can give the impression of being big enough to matter.
     
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