The gender myth

galdre

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for your reading enjoyment: The Gender Myth

unless of course you believe the prevailing societal views regarding gender, in which case you'll probably hate the article

So what's your view regarding the differences between men and women? Nature or nurture?
 
Why does it have to be an exclusive "OR"? Why not an "AND"?

P.S. I disagree strongly with the "blank slate" theory, which is why I didn't like the article.
 
for your reading enjoyment: The Gender Myth

unless of course you believe the prevailing societal views regarding gender, in which case you'll probably hate the article

So what's your view regarding the differences between men and women? Nature or nurture?

Both; over time the evolutionary differences become apparent. Some species have aggressive and dominant males, others have aggressive and dominant females.

Here, the differences are slight, but people mainly conform to traditional gender roles. Those differences are exaggerated mainly for sexual purposes and due to peer pressure and societal expectations.

In our species, the differences are so slight that other than various physical activities where larger, testosterone-filled males enjoy a large advantage, or smaller, more nimble and balanced females enjoy a large advantage, our slight statistical differences in aptitude tests, men and women can perform the same functions, and often do.

It is only tradition and majority opinion that causes the continued exaggeration of the differences between sexes, through a nurturing process either gender can likely perform the same function of the other at equal or near-equal proficiency.

Nature will for a time continue to produce slight differences in the genders, as it seems to match what our preferences are. Women with more feminine features or characteristics (as we define them) will produce more offspring, men with more masculine features or characteristics (as we define them) will produce more offspring, so long as those preferences remain popular.

However, because we get traits from our mothers and our fathers, we are at our core the same kind of person. Those strengths we get from one gender can easily apply to another gender. That is why we seem to exaggerate those features commonly associated with a gender, to more easily identify one another, pretty much solely for traditional reasons or for the purposes of mating.

Other traits, such as the ability to write the above several paragraphs, will always pale in comparison to the ability to catch a ball or the ability to be born into a wealthy family. :D

Some things never change. :lol:
 
Of course there are some genetic differences, so we can't expect and shouldn't use force to get identical societal statistics for men and women. But everyone should still have the same possibilities, rights and be treated the same under the law etc.
 
Here, the differences are slight, but people mainly conform to traditional gender roles. Those differences are exaggerated mainly for sexual purposes and due to peer pressure and societal expectations.
So the ratio of men to women in prisons, and of men to women in board rooms, are because of:
a) sexual purposes
b) peer pressure
c) societal expectations
d) results of the different choices largely taken by men and women, because we are statistically different, both in appearance and in mind.

Of course there are some genetic differences, so we can't expect and shouldn't use force to get identical societal statistics for men and women. But everyone should still have the same possibilities, rights and be treated the same under the law etc.
This sounds right.
 
So the ratio of men to women in prisons, and of men to women in board rooms, are because of:
a) sexual purposes
b) peer pressure
c) societal expectations
d) results of the different choices largely taken by men and women, because we are statistically different, both in appearance and in mind.

none of the above

men commit more violent crime, mainly because men are taught to solve all problems with physical violence. However, look at bullying in the workplace, a non-physical form of violence: women are much more likely to be bullied by other women than they are by men, or than men are by anyone. So both men and women use violence (in the sense of violence being the imposition of your will on another), just in different ways.

as for the boardrooms, that's a result of women being excluded from those positions for so long. Getting those positions is generally a matter of knowing the right person, so the system remains closed
 
This makes a lot of sense to me. When I took the SAT my verbal skills were very high but my math skills were terrible and I'm male. I've always been very good with reading and writing but with math and science I'm borderline ******ed and I could get lost in a village.
 
for your reading enjoyment: The Gender Myth

unless of course you believe the prevailing societal views regarding gender, in which case you'll probably hate the article

So what's your view regarding the differences between men and women? Nature or nurture?
:lol:

I just saw some man on TV that biologically is a woman. He was playing basketball in the US in a ladies college team and was supposedly quite good at it. He referred to himself as a transsexual and argued that, although he always have had a female body, he's always "known" that he is a man.

Strange, isn't it?!
 
This makes a lot of sense to me. When I took the SAT my verbal skills were very high but my math skills were terrible and I'm male. I've always been very good with reading and writing but with math and science I'm borderline ******ed and I could get lost in a village.

I wonder if that has to do with your homosexuality. Of course, generalizations can't very well be applied to the individual anyway, there will always be exceptions.
 
One word: Socialisation.
Very much so. It's quite possible that, in a genderless world, biological males would tend to act in a "masculine" fashion, and biological females would tend to act in a "feminine" fashion, but drawing absolute codes of conduct upon this- especially ones which are gross exaggerations of any average, as our most traditional interpretations- is repressive and unreasonable. Sooner we dump 'em, the better.

Plus, it's not as if a biologically deterministic binary model of gender is universal to human culture anyway. There's plenty of historical cultures which have contained trans-, third, inter-, bi- and agenderism. I mentioned this in a thread a few months ago...

The Native Americans have the "Two-Spirits", people who are recognised as inter- or bi-gendered; Amerindians have many customs of Cogenderism; some Mesoamerican cultures recognised a third gender; the Indian subcontinent and South-East Asia has a long history of third/trans/inter-genderism, like the India Hijra or the Thai Kathoey; in much of the pre-Christian Middle East and Mediterranean, eunuchs were not regarded as men, but as a third gender; the Albanian hill-tribes entertain a form of transgenderism known as "Sworn virginity" ...China has a long history of transgenderism.

gender roles are bunk. i'm gonna bake a pie
Feminist Hulk salutes you! :goodjob:
 
Very much so. It's quite possible that, in a genderless world, biological males would tend to act in a "masculine" fashion, and biological females would tend to act in a "feminine" fashion, but drawing absolute codes of conduct upon this- especially ones which are gross exaggerations of any average, as our most traditional interpretations- is repressive and unreasonable. Sooner we dump 'em, the better.

Plus, it's not as if a biologically deterministic binary model of gender is universal to human culture anyway. There's plenty of historical cultures which have contained trans-, third, inter-, bi- and agenderism. I mentioned this in a thread a few months ago...

So, if we weren't socialized into our gender, it's quite possible we'd act as neutrums..? ..and the "trans-, third, inter-, bi- and agender"ed people have been mostly socialized into thinking they're of a gender different from what's most common?! ...or their perception of being what they believe they are is irrelevant because the genderroles are just a social construct?! It's a bit disrespecting toward HBT-people.
Or maybe our gender, what we feel we are, only can be expressed through acts that are associated to the specific gender and will never vanish even if they'll appear in different forms.
 
So, if we weren't socialized into our gender, it's quite possible we'd act as neutrums..?
Not as such, no- the evidence seems to suggest that each biological sex (setting aside intersex people for a minute) have certain general tendencies, but the key is that these are individual, and that gender- among other things- limits individual realisation of personal identity. It's quite probable that, in a genderless world, most men would act in a recognisably "masculine" fashion, and most women in a recognisably "feminine" fashion. but this would be an individual choice, and no prescriptions would be made as to behaviour deemed "proper" for one who happens to possess a certain set of reproductive organs.
Remember, "gender neutrality" is a gendered concept in itself, in that it exists as a mid-point between two traditional norms. Without these norms, there can be no mid-point, and so no meaningful concept of "gender neutrality".

..and the "trans-, third, inter-, bi- and agender"ed people have been mostly socialized into thinking they're of a gender different from what's most common?! ...or their perception of being what they believe they are is irrelevant because the genderroles are just a social construct?! It's a bit disrespecting toward HBT-people.
It's more complicated than that; gender is a construct, but that does not delegitimatise a gender expression within the terms of that construct, either cis or trans, if that is what gives any individual feels comfortable doing; "construct" does not mean "bad", after all. It's simply important to remember that it is ultimately a construct, and so not everyone will necessarily feel that adhering to it's terms is fulfilling for them as an individual, and so may opt for an alternate form of expression, such as agenderism, inter- and third genderism or bi/polygenderism. (The distinction between a-, inter- and third-genderism is not very precise, and is often simply a case of individual identity. Bi/polygenderism refers to a person who entertains multiple gender identities- discreet or fluid- depending on mood or circumstance.)

It should also be noted that there is a distinction between transexuality and transgenderism (although the former almost always entails the latter). The former is properly understood as an intersex condition which makes it difficult or impossible for an individual to identify with the anatomy they were born with, while the latter refers to any non-conventional expression of gender. In a genderless society, the latter would cease to exist in a meaningful sense, as there would be no convention to deviate from, while the latter would still exist as a psychological and medical concern.

Or maybe our gender, what we feel we are, only can be expressed through acts that are associated to the specific gender and will never vanish even if they'll appear in different forms.
As I said, it's certainly true that, for the majority, their natural tendencies are towards something vaguely approximate to gendered behaviour, but this is far from universal, nor, it can be argued, would the natural tendency of the majority conform to the limiting and rather exaggerated norms presented by the traditional binary.
 
The OP article is interesting but they don't mention sexual dimorphism.

Any good discussion of what is and isn't truly a gender phenotype is going to discuss genes located on the X and Y chromosomes, not just hype or stereotypes.
 
I think this article makes a big stink over nothing. Just because genders are different does not mean that they do not deserve equal treatment. Maybe boys learn math better than girls, or not. It shouldn't prevent both from being taught math and to have certain minimal expectations.

It only makes sense to recognize that the genders are different. To deny that women have different modes of behavior and thinking from men is to be oblivious to reality. But difference is not inferiority.
 
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