The General Police Brutality Thread

[MagisterCultuum]

They ought to be more alert about traffic. Cops are more likely to be killed in car crashes during their commute to the precinct than ever injured in the line of duty.

The job of a cop is much less dangerous than that of a farmer, fisherman, or lumberjack, or roofer. Among the sort of careers favored by lower middle class men with only a high school education, it is one of the safest alternatives.


40% is still a minority, but I certainly wouldn't call it it minuscule.

The big problem with cops is that they have a strong culture of solidarity (similar to that of many criminal gangs) which pressures the "good cops" to defend their brothers rather than expose their mistakes.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I sure wouldn't want to be a cop in America. What many people don't realize is that these guys are under constant threat of losing their lives. Thanks to guns being legal in the US, every encounter they have can be their death. They have to be constantly alert and always take into consideration that the other guy will draw a gun. They have to deal with insults and unaccommodating behaviour all the time. This is not an easy job, and mistakes will happen. Of course it's easy to criticize them from the safety of your appartement room.

That's not to say that some cops aren't authoritarian bastards. But it seems to me that the percentage is minuscule.

I would be so much more sympathetic to this "oh their job is so dangerous so cut them some slack" nonsense if it were not statistically demonstrated that it is far more dangerous to be a garbageman than a cop. Or a roofer. Or a bunch of other jobs where no one is saying "so when they shoot people let's cut them some slack since their job is so dangerous."

 

[EgonSpengler]

I sure wouldn't want to be a cop in America. What many people don't realize is that these guys are under constant threat of losing their lives. Thanks to guns being legal in the US, every encounter they have can be their death. They have to be constantly alert and always take into consideration that the other guy will draw a gun. They have to deal with insults and unaccommodating behaviour all the time. This is not an easy job, and mistakes will happen. Of course it's easy to criticize them from the safety of your appartement room.

That's not to say that some cops aren't authoritarian bastards. But it seems to me that the percentage is minuscule.

But I think much of that is not true. Unfortunately, I don't have links immediately at hand. iirc, statistically it's much safer to be a police officer than to be a young Black man in the US. I also recall that hospital nurses (among other professions) are injured on the job at a higher rate than police officers, and that any citizen (including those who are police officers, of course) is more likely to be killed in a car accident than a police officer is to be killed in the line of duty.

As for the percentage of officers who are 'authoritarian bastards', the US Department of Justice has conducted "pattern or practice" investigations into something like two dozen police departments around the country. afaik, not one of the investigations has exonerated the department under investigation. Naturally, only the departments who get attention for misbehavior, violence, and civil rights violations earn such an investigation by the Justice Department, but while many of these investigations were spurred by high-profile incidents, these were not investigations of the incidents themselves (although in many cases the precipitating event was also the subject of a separate DOJ investigation, as was the case in Ferguson, MO).

For example, on Ferguson, former Attorney General Eric Holder wrote,

"Our investigation showed that Ferguson police officers routinely violate the Fourth Amendment in stopping people without reasonable suspicion, arresting them without probable cause, and using unreasonable force against them."

"Routinely." This is not a few bad apples. Maybe there were a few good apples, we don't know. You can find similar reports with similar findings on Cleveland, Albuquerque, and New Orleans, among others, and Baltimore is currently being investigated. And the DOJ isn't the only organization handing police departments their butts. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts issued a scathing report on the police-on-police, O.K. Corral-style shootout in Watertown following the bombing of the Boston Marathon, for example.

 

[EgonSpengler]

It was just announced on the radio that the City of Baltimore has settled with Freddie Gray's family for $6 million. The criminal cases against the 6 officers are still going forward, so this must have been a civil suit.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I sure wouldn't want to be a cop in America. What many people don't realize is that these guys are under constant threat of losing their lives. Thanks to guns being legal in the US, every encounter they have can be their death. They have to be constantly alert and always take into consideration that the other guy will draw a gun. They have to deal with insults and unaccommodating behaviour all the time. This is not an easy job, and mistakes will happen. Of course it's easy to criticize them from the safety of your appartement room.

Just as it is so easy to dismiss the times when they clearly screw up and execute people with no valid reason whatsoever?

So far this year there have been 24 gunfire-related deaths to cops which were not accidental. There are approximately 780,000 cops in the US. Assuming the same rate for the rest of the year, there will be 36 deaths. This translates into 4.6 deaths per 100,000 by gunfire.

The rate of fatal work injury in 2011 was 3.5 per 100,000 across all workers.

2013 statistics by occupation per 100,000n:

Loggers 91
Fishermen 75.
Pilots and flight engineers 50
Roofers 38
Garbage collectors 33
Mining machine operators 29
Truck drivers 22
Farmers, ranchers, etc. 22
Power linemen 21
Construction workers 18

So being a construction worker makes you almost 4 times more likely to be killed on the job compared to cops by gunfire. Loggers are nearly 20 times more likely to die on the job.

Now, let's consider the number of deaths of cops by knife in 2015. Zero.

What we have here is an execution by cowardly cops presuming they might die to some supposed master ninja who can strike before they can react.

The big problem with cops is that they have a strong culture of solidarity (similar to that of many criminal gangs) which pressures the "good cops" to defend their brothers rather than expose their mistakes.

Indeed. But what is even more disturbing is that there is video evidence this time and the cops will still likely get away with it. It is because that so-called "thin blue line" extends even into the community in general, especially in states like Texas.

 

[Funky]

But I think much of that is not true. Unfortunately, I don't have links immediately at hand. iirc, statistically it's much safer to be a police officer than to be a young Black man in the US.

Well, I wouldn't doubt that. Considering the insane rate by which young black men in the US kill each other, it is a rather unfair comparison. But my argument was not so much about numbers, rather about the state of mind that policemen are constantly in. How many are actually killed is irrelevant to the fact that everybody they engage with could potentially have a gun and make use of it. Cops have to be constantly alert. Every sudden movement, every time a suspect reaches into his coat pocket, they have to consider that a gun may be drawn. I'd imagine that the reason not so many are killed (in case that is true, I haven't looked up the numbers), is their well-trained sense of perception and their not fooling around when the situation gets critical.

In Europe, where owning guns is illegal, police brutality isn't an issue at all.

As for Ferguson, what I heard the black witness say is that the only surprising thing was that the policeman didn't shoot the guy earlier, given his bizarre and aggressive behaviour.

 

[Labtec600]

Just as it is so easy to dismiss the times when they clearly screw up and execute people with no valid reason whatsoever?

So far this year there have been 24 gunfire-related deaths to cops which were not accidental. There are approximately 780,000 cops in the US. Assuming the same rate for the rest of the year, there will be 36 deaths. This translates into 4.6 deaths per 100,000 by gunfire.

The rate of fatal work injury in 2011 was 3.5 per 100,000 across all workers.

2013 statistics by occupation per 100,000n:

Loggers 91
Fishermen 75.
Pilots and flight engineers 50
Roofers 38
Garbage collectors 33
Mining machine operators 29
Truck drivers 22
Farmers, ranchers, etc. 22
Power linemen 21
Construction workers 18

So being a construction worker makes you almost 4 times more likely to be killed on the job compared to cops by gunfire. Loggers are nearly 20 times more likely to die on the job.

Now, let's consider the number of deaths of cops by knife in 2015. Zero.

What we have here is an execution by cowardly cops presuming they might die to some supposed master ninja who can strike before they can react.

Indeed. But what is even more disturbing is that there is video evidence this time and the cops will still likely get away with it. It is because that so-called "thin blue line" extends even into the community in general, especially in states like Texas.

Good job on comparing every possible way to die on one job to only one particular way on another.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Well, I wouldn't doubt that. Considering the insane rate by which young black men in the US kill each other, it is a rather unfair comparison.

It's not an unfair comparison, because it's Black men that police in so many cities are abusing (not the only people they're abusing, of course).

But my argument was not so much about numbers, rather about the state of mind that policemen are constantly in.

Yes, I agree. We can see that police do not have a rational justification for escalating situations to violence and violating people's civil rights the way that they do, and yet they do it. The "us vs. them" mentality that cops seem to have doesn't appear to be justified or rational, yet it seems to be there anyway.

I'd imagine that the reason not so many are killed (in case that is true, I haven't looked up the numbers), is their well-trained sense of perception and their not fooling around when the situation gets critical.

This sentence really raised an eyebrow. What you're saying is that police officers are more aware and/or more professional when it comes to the dangers inherent in their jobs than loggers, fishermen, pilots, roofers, garbage collectors, miners, truck drivers, farmers, ranchers, linemen and construction workers are to the dangers inherent in theirs (because, according to the Forbes article cited above, all of those professions are more lethal than being in law enforcement). You've bought into the myth of the police officer as innately superior, hook, line & sinker.

 

[Funky]

It's not an unfair comparison, because it's Black men that police in so many cities are abusing (not the only people they're abusing, of course).

If blacks want to avoid being targetted by the police, maybe they should stop committing so many crimes. Is it a wonder that they are checked more often when they are responsible for more than half of the homicides in the US while making up only 12 percent of the population?

This sentence really raised an eyebrow. What you're saying is that police officers are more aware and/or more professional when it comes to the dangers inherent in their jobs than loggers, fishermen, pilots, roofers, garbage collectors, miners, truck drivers, farmers, ranchers, linemen and construction workers are to the dangers inherent in theirs

I didn't compare anything. The various dangers that other people face in their jobs are irrelevant to my argument.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Good job on comparing every possible way to die on one job to only one particular way on another.

If you just compare deaths on the job you will find that while Formy's stupid apples to oranges four to one number is meaningless, the real numbers will show that being a construction worker at 18 deaths per hundred thousand is still more dangerous than being a cop, which comes out around 16 deaths per hundred thousand.

 

[Farm Boy]

If you just compare deaths on the job you will find that while Formy's stupid apples to oranges four to one number is meaningless, the real numbers will show that being a construction worker at 18 deaths per hundred thousand is still more dangerous than being a cop, which comes out around 16 deaths per hundred thousand.

This is true, but if we're trying to justify police killings as necessary and linked to the rates at which they themselves are intentionally killed then the casualty rates they suffer in traffic accidents because they are behind the wheel all day is a bit unrelated.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This is true, but if we're trying to justify police killings as necessary and linked to the rates at which they themselves are intentionally killed then the casualty rates they suffer in traffic accidents because they are behind the wheel all day is a bit unrelated.

Oh, no doubt. But the reality is that even using the apples to apples numbers the leg riders will still come back with the same "their job is still the most dangerous there is so we have to just let them shoot a few people now and then" nonsense. So there is certainly no point in giving them an apples to oranges comparison with a built in excuse for them to ignore it.

 

[EgonSpengler]

If blacks want to avoid being targetted by the police, maybe they should stop committing so many crimes. Is it a wonder that they are checked more often when they are responsible for more than half of the homicides in the US while making up only 12 percent of the population?

Nice imaginary numbers. Also, good job dodging civil rights and due process. You're a true patriot*.

Did I mention that the cops you're so fond of are incompetent boobs? While the cops in Atlanta and Boston were busy shooting each another, the cops in New York were furiously stopping and frisking those scary, scary Black people and finding... pretty much nothing. In 5 million "stop and frisks" from 2002-2014, NYPD recovered a weapon 0.02% of the time. So even when they were basically free to shred the United States Constitution to their hearts' contents, they still couldn't come up with anything. They're not even good at being jackbooted thugs. To quote Bugs Bunny, what a bunch of maroons...

The various dangers that other people face in their jobs are irrelevant to my argument.

My point exactly.



* Actually, I have no idea what country you're from.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Good job on comparing every possible way to die on one job to only one particular way on another.

The point is that cops getting intentionally killed by gunshot isn't a good thing. But it certainly doesn't happen often enough to warrant this nonsensical "shoot first and ask questions later" mentality that you seem to actually be rationalizing and defending. It happens just a bit more frequently than any employee dying on the job.

This inane mentality is particularly true when the person might have a knife and is surrounded by cops with their guns drawn. There are no ninja knife fatalities. Not one. There isn't even a single surprise knife fatality. It seems most people are smart enough to not bring a knife to a gun fight.

If you just compare deaths on the job you will find that while Formy's stupid apples to oranges four to one number is meaningless, the real numbers will show that being a construction worker at 18 deaths per hundred thousand is still more dangerous than being a cop, which comes out around 16 deaths per hundred thousand.

Glad to see you completely missed the point of why I intentionally did it that way while turning it into yet another wacky personal attack.



Yes, being a cop is still a fairly dangerous job. But getting shot only accounts for about a quarter of their deaths. Heart attacks account for half that many. Auto accidents are 23%.

Line of Duty Deaths: 83

9/11 related illness: 3
Accidental: 2
Aircraft accident: 1
Assault: 3
Automobile accident: 19
Fall: 1
Gunfire: 24
Gunfire (Accidental): 2
Heart attack: 13
Motorcycle accident: 3
Struck by vehicle: 5
Vehicle pursuit: 4
Vehicular assault: 3

 

[Funky]

Nice imaginary numbers.

Look it up. Takes like 2 minutes. Black people in the US commit far more crimes, not just homicide, than any other racial group or ethnicity. They are 13 times more likely to kill a white person than vice versa. These are simply facts. I don't think it is intentional, but by absolving black people from the same responsibility as everyone else you are not only engaged in a form of racism, you are also hindering progress by avoiding to talk about the problem.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

<---snip--->

I didn't miss your point, I just agreed that it was poorly made.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Look it up. Takes like 2 minutes. Black people in the US commit far more crimes, not just homicide, than any other racial group or ethnicity. They are 13 times more likely to kill a white person than vice versa. These are simply facts. I don't think it is intentional, but by absolving black people from the same responsibility as everyone else you are not only engaged in a form of racism, you are also hindering progress by avoiding to talk about the problem.

Dylann Roof recited similar statistics as a reason for committing his atrocities.

Many of the supposed crimes committed by blacks are simple drug possession charges, frequently marijuana. Unlike whites, cops almost always arrest them for simple possession "to get them into the system" where it is even more difficult for them to find jobs.

The young black male unemployment rate in the US is an international embarrassment. So is the incarceration rate.





Our society is turning blacks into criminals while senselessly executing a disproportionate number of them on the streets for merely being black. And you appear to be in favor of it.

I didn't miss your point, I just agreed that it was poorly made.

Only it was obviously nothing of the sort.

Formy's stupid apples to oranges four to one number is meaningless

Don't you ever grow tired of engaging in incessant personal attacks merely because I apparently embarrassed you once?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Only it was obviously nothing of the sort.

Obvious to who? The person you were trying to make the point to responded with a laughing out loud smiley. Your apples to oranges comparison was lame, period.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Cops simply don't get killed enough with gunfire, much less ninja knife attacks, to warrant this inane shoot first and ask questions later response we see so frequently.

You even agree with me on this matter, yet you can't find yourself even saying so since I apparently embarrassed you once. Take a look at all the cops vs victims threads before that. The only place where we haven't agreed is your opinion that cops will likely beat you up and possibly even kill you if nobody is looking.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Cops simply don't get killed enough with gunfire, much less ninja knife attacks, to warrant this inane shoot first and ask questions later response we see so frequently.

You even agree with me on this matter, yet you can't find yourself even saying so since I apparently embarrassed you once. Take a look at all the cops vs victims threads before that. The only place where we haven't agreed is your opinion that cops will likely beat you up and possibly even kill you if nobody is looking.

I've never actually seen you embarrass anyone but yourself.

That said, we did agree that cops claiming "oh the dangers" need to be dialed back. I've made that point many times, just like I did here...after you failed so badly with your "cops getting shot vs construction workers dying of all causes" that got rightfully laughed off.

I agree with you on lots of things, by the way. No news to anyone there.