The Georgaphy of Europe

[Veles]

The eastern border of Europe has been shifted eastwards several times throughout history.

First it was the Ister river (Danube), then it was Tanais (Donets), then Rha (Volga). Now it's Ural mountains and Ural river.

So, unlike Africa or America, Europe is pretty much an imaginary concept. And despite it's dominance in almost every area during the last couple of millenia it's still second smallest "continent". A peninsula of Eurasia, with Asia being 4 times bigger. So what kind of "Eur"-asia is that? More like Asiope. Wouldn't adding Siberia in the geographical concept of Europe make sense and balance things out?

So, whaddya think? Are there any good reasons why Siberia shouldn't be considered Europe in geografical sense?

That will also end this annoying notion, that Russia is somehow, not a fully European country (in geografical sense).

P.S. Also in that case Poland would surely stop being Eastern Europen

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

So, whaddya think? Are there any good reasons why Siberia shouldn't be considered Europe in geografical sense?

Siberia is too far away from the main continent of Europe.

 

[Dachs]

Why is there any need to add Siberia to "Europe" other than "Europe looks too small"?

 

[EnglishCrusader]

I, personally, don't see Russia in Europe at all, and I see the border line for Europe in the east to be the Russian border.

 

[Save_Ferris]

Poland is in central Europe.

But I consider there to be 6 geographical continents:
North America
South America
Africa
Eurasia
Antarctica
Australia

When you talk about news and general discussion, I consider there to be 9:
Oceania (Australia + Pacific)
North America (US, Canada, usually Mexico)
Central America (Carribean, NA countries south of Mexico)
South America
Europe (including all of Russia)
Middle East (SW Asia and northern Africa)
Asia (Eastern Eurasia)
Sub-Saharan Africa
Poles (North, South, Greenland)

 

[bombshoo]

Let's just rename all of Afro-Eurasia to "East America".

 

[EnglishCrusader]

Let's just rename all of Afro-Eurasia to "East America".

Or call the Americas 'Western Europe', Asia 'Eastern Europe' and Africa 'Southern Europe'. Europe can then also be referred to as 'The Centre of the World' with Britain as the 'Capital of the Centre of the World'. Yes, that works.

 

[Veles]

Why is there any need to add Siberia to "Europe" other than "Europe looks too small"?

That's a good enough reason.

There's no "need". It's a matter of taste, a question of aesthetics, and Russia not being partly in Asia.

Besides, calling it Europe reduces, at least in theory, the possible Chinese claims on it. A bit of wishfull thinking, yes.

Think of it this way:

Siberia is populated with 40 mil of whom 90% are Russian Slavs. Slavs are the most populouse Indo-European people, the very epitome of European along with Germanics and Celts.

Siberia generally consists of 3 river-basins: of the Ob, the Yenisei and Lena. All of them flow into Arctic ocean just like Dvina or Pechora or other rivers of Russian European North. It's sentimental, but for me Europe means the people of the North.

Think about all the awesomeness Europe instantly gets.

 

[Dachs]

That's a good enough reason.

There's no "need". It's a matter of taste, a question of aesthetics, and Russia not being partly in Asia.

Besides, calling it Europe reduces, at least in theory, the possible Chinese claims on it. A bit of wishfull thinking, yes.

Think of it this way:

Siberia is populated with 40 mil of whom 90% are Russian Slavs. Slavs are the most populouse Indo-European people, the very epitome of European along with Germanics and Celts.

Siberia generally consists of 3 river-basins: of the Ob, the Yenisei and Lena. All of them flow into Arctic ocean just like Dvina or Pechora or other rivers of Russian European North. It's sentimental, but for me Europe means the people of the North.

Think about all the awesomeness Europe instantly gets.

Your argument also means that the Americas - or at least, the Americas east of the Rockies and Andes - should be "Europe" as well: populated by people that speak an Indo-European language and that live in river basins that flow into the same ocean as do the ones in Europe.

And it's really not just a question of aesthetics, because "Europe" is a common reference term employed because if two people use it in conversation with each other, it's reasonably certain that they're talking about the same thing. You can't just add in Siberia by fiat because it seems more natural to you - the term's utility as a reference becomes nonsense if you do that.

 

[Veles]

Siberia is too far away from the main continent of Europe.

Yes, but we're talking here about expanding the concept of "Europe".

I, personally, don't see Russia in Europe at al...

That's political point of view, not geography or ethnography. Russia is European by every measure.

 

[Ramius75]

no, lets Add "europe" into Asia... thats the proper way.

 

[EnglishCrusader]

no, lets Add "europe" into Asia... thats the proper way.

But that would imply that Asia is better than Europe, which we all know is not true.

 

[Veles]

Your argument also means that the Americas - or at least, the Americas east of the Rockies and Andes - should be "Europe" as well: populated by people that speak an Indo-European language and that live in river basins that flow into the same ocean as do the ones in Europe.

Well, to me 'Mericans and Canadians are Europeans in every sense bar geografical.

And it's really not just a question of aesthetics, because "Europe" is a common reference term employed because if two people use it in conversation with each other, it's reasonably certain that they're talking about the same thing. You can't just add in Siberia by fiat because it seems more natural to you - the term's utility as a reference becomes nonsense if you do that.

Dude, I understand all that. I'm talking about expanding the concept, about starting to think anew.

Is clinging to old established terms worth missing all the cool opportunities of being bigger, stronger, more awesome? And possibly unite as a super-duper-uberest ultimate world power evar?

 

[Ramius75]

But that would imply that Asia is better than Europe, which we all know is not true.

its a turn of fortune of coz... soon my friend, soon.

 

[EnglishCrusader]

its a turn of fortune of coz... soon my friend, soon.

As a start, proper grammar would be nice

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I always thought of the part of Russia west of the Ural Mountains as part of Europe and east as part of Asia. It seems logical to me really.

 

[Dachs]

Well, to me 'Mericans and Canadians are Europeans in every sense bar geografical.

We already have a term for the thing you're talking about: "places where people who speak Indo-European languages live". That's really only the substantial reason you've given for changing the definition of the word, and since that encompasses almost the entire world, it's not a very useful reason to redefine "Europe".

Dude, I understand all that. I'm talking about expanding the concept, about starting to think anew.

Is clinging to old established terms worth missing all the cool opportunities of being bigger, stronger, more awesome? And possibly unite as a super-duper-uberest ultimate world power evar?

So "change is good because it is change" (that's not very Russian of you )?

I kinda doubt that the definition of the word "Europe" is going to mean anything if you want the Americans, EU countries, and Russia to unite in some super-country of awesome.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Is clinging to old established terms worth missing all the cool opportunities of being bigger, stronger, more awesome? And possibly unite as a super-duper-uberest ultimate world power evar?

Seriously, this sounds like something an 8-year old would say.

What reason do you possibly have for wanting this other than the fact that you live in Russia and hate that Western Europeans don't identify you as truly European? It's like the Americans who demand to be identified as Amerindian because their great-great-great-great grandmother was 1/4 Sioux.

 

[EnglishCrusader]

Seriously, this sounds like something an 8-year old would say.

What reason do you possibly have for wanting this other than the fact that you live in Russia and hate that Western Europeans don't identify you as truly European? It's like the Americans who demand to be identified as Amerindian because their great-great-great-great grandmother was 1/4 Sioux.

I hate being generalised as 'European' by Americans but we all have to live with it. And if you find an 8 year old saying that, WOW.

 

[Veles]

I always thought of the part of Russia west of the Ural Mountains as part of Europe and east as part of Asia. It seems logical to me really.

That's because people usually picture the Urals as some sort of natural wall, the high peaks separating the two continents. While in fact Urals are one of the oldest mountain chains on Earth, and by now look more like hills in most parts not really giving an impression of a wall.