[BNW] The "Getting Tributes from Deity AI" Strategy PART 1

Tiberiu

Prince
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Feb 29, 2020
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Hello guys, I'm a long time lurker of this forum and I learned many things along the years from various posts. I have climbed my way from Prince to Deity using many things that I learned. Today, I have decided to give something back, so to speak, and share with you my own strategy for Deity play. As far as I can tell it is a pretty unique strategy and thus I call it, un-mysteriously, The Tiberian strategy, but the title of the thread is put to know what to expect.

This is the first time I am writing such a guide so most probably it won't be the best form for such a guide, but I will try my best. Feedback, questions or objections are always welcome and appreciated.

If people find this interesting enough I will share more of my strategies. I apologize in advance for any spelling mistakes. Also, I'll try to keep this concise but it may become a bit long in order to adequately address all the topics that I need. Hopefully it will still be easy to read.

edit: this now has a Video as demonstration of the most basic ideas.

DISCLAIMERS:

1) As the general go-to setting in this guide I will use the HUGE size, Pangaea, 12 civs/24 CS, standard speed settings, default settings. Works on any size/type but the larger the map the better the strat.
2) Not designed to give you necessarily the fastest turn victory time, if that is what you're after. It's meant to give you a fire-proof strategy to dominate the game from start to finish and reliably win any game.
3) If you are an Immortal player wanting to advance to Deity, or you are a Deity player who still struggles to win sometimes, or if you just want to try something new and FUN, then this post is exactly for you!
4) Declaring war on active deals is not considered an exploit because the AI can and will do the same thing to you. I do not advocate the use of any cheats/exploits and that includes playing with map knowledge and map cooking.
5) This is for single player/Deity. Needless to say, multiplayer games are very different.

SUMMARY (what to expect):

The strategy is aimed at giving you an ultra-strong economy based primarily on obtaining tributes in the form of Gold/turn, amounting in pre-Modern to anything from 5-50 and then increasing up to 250+ GPT in later eras. Secondly, you will be making very high amounts of Gold from diplomatic ploys by selling cities that you obtain, either through conquest or bought with gold per turn. A good transaction can give you over 100+ GPT, but in general you should be happy with 50+ GPT transactions nonetheless. Third, you will be able to manipulate the world to your needs, making others fight each other for your benefit.

IMPORTANT: Buying cities is NOT REQUIRED for the strategy to work! It works fine without it, should you have any objections or concerns about that. It's just an option that you have if you want to really CRUSH the DEITY AI and bring the world at your knees via diplomatic madness.


Here's an example of city transaction. Assyria is getting their ass kicked by Attila, and just lost his capital. Now, he's willing to sell me his biggest city and just because I have enough gold per turn I can buy it from him. If I didn't have enough money I could not buy this city from him. So this takes place at peace, not at war. War comes after the city transaction, of course.
buy lvl 20 city.jpg


And now an example of SELLING a city for profit (note that the picture shows what HE is willing to give me. It is extremely important to never accept any luxury resource as a bonus to any transaction of city. Always accept ONLY Gold/Turn and GOLD and nothing else. Or else you risk the cancellation of the deal because of pillaging of resources.
warprofit.jpg


It works best when you meet civilizations quickly so in theory it's more efficient for Pangaea-type maps compared to Continents but make no mistake, it works on any kind of map.
Following it, in general, you enter Modern Era around turn 175 and you are usually tech leader too.
I will try to separate the strategy in Stages to try to keep things more clear and organized.
Before I get into the specifics of the strategy, I will simply enumerate, oversimplyfied, some core elements of the strategy and then get into more details.

The Core Elements of the strategy. Understanding Tributes. Understanding War.

The core of the strategy is based on the fact that there are 3 types of tribute in this game.

TRIBUTES. There are 3 kinds of tributes in CIV 5. Two are based on the power of your army, and one is based on the power of your economy and to a lesser extent, of your army.

Type 1, and the least common, is the tribute you can obtain via the "Demand" dialogue option. This option usually requires that you have a strong military and it is not the way to reliably obtain tribute from the AI. (Requires: strong Military)

Type 2, is the tribute you can obtain when you are at war with a civ and you dominate that civ militarily, and it is willing to give you stuff to make peace, be it Gold, Gold per Turn, luxuries, or even cities. (Requires: strong Military)

Type 3, and the most important type for the strategy, is tribute that you can obtain when you are at war with a civ and you do not necessarily dominate it militarily, but you dominate economically, and the civ is willing to make peace with you and in the process, give you Gold/Turn.
This type has 2 sub-types.
3.1. - if the rival civ has stronger military than you, it will only give you a maximum of 50% of the GPT that they produce. For example if they produce 100 gold per turn you will only be able to extract 50 and not more, by any means.
You will also not be able to extract anything other than Gold/Turn. The Gold per Turn that you can obtain is in proportion to your GNP and this means that how much Gold/Turn you produce yourself greatly influences the amount of tribute that you will receive.
3.2 - if the rival civ is also dominated militarily by you, but not enough that he is willing to give you cities, you will be able to receive as tribute 100% of the Gold/Turn that they produce at that time.

In the picture below, Greece is the Runaway civ in the game militarily, 450.000+, While I have 200.000+.
He is willing to give me 97 GPT 5 turns after I attacked him. (COLD WAR)
This is a Type 3 tribute. It's critical to understand that if my GNP value wasn't high enough he would not give me gold at all! This is why having such a strong economy is needed in order for the strategy to work! Army alone would not do it.

tribute.jpg

Now here is the tribute that Pachacuti is willing to give me in the same turn because I have stronger military than him. As you can see it's almost all of his gold. In fact, the only reason he doesn't give me all his GPT is the fact that my GNP isn't high enough. For context, my own GPT because of other deals before this transaction takes place is around 550. As you can see in the picture he wants to also give some iron, horses and aluminium, but he's strong enough that I couldn't get a city out of him as tribute even if I wanted to.
260 gold per turn is better than a city anyway.

tribute record_260.jpg

Moving on...


This strategy has 4 levels of efficiency based on techs discovered. Aside from this, the tributes will vary in relation to how much gold you can generate through the Trade Posts that you build on useless tiles and work when you make peace. Goes without saying that any Tech that helps you generate Gold is also useful. I just think that these ones far surpass anything that the other ones have to offer. Electricity gives access to Stock Exchange and aluminium, for example. But it's not nearly as powerful as Chemistry or Economics in themselves. They give you stuff just by having them, they don't require that you do something.

Keep in mind that this is just a guideline, and values are estimates. The actual values can be much higher if you manage to maintain a strong economy via other means, such as trade routes, selling luxuries, etc. These values represent what you can expect to be able to extract at the point in the game when you discover these. Also, note that Chemistry can be discovered much earlier, but I think that doing so slows the tech path too much to be worthwhile. Still, it's a key component of the Tribute strategy. Other than that, there are of course many different Social Policies that can be used to increase the amounts of tribute that you can obtain.


Level 1 - Before discovering Guilds - Tributes will be little. (5-10 gpt)
Level 2 - Guilds discovered - Tributes are decent (15-25 gpt)
Level 3 - Economics discovered- Tributes are high (50-100 gpt)
Level 4 - Chemistry discovered- Tributes are very high (50-100+ gpt)


What to do and what to avoid.

1) When you have time with your workers, build Trade Posts on all tiles that you DO NOT intend to work! This will prove very useful later. You will use them during peace-making deals.
2) Never go in a joint war with somebody! It's a mistake that prevents you from obtaining tributes when you need them.
I recommend that you lie that you will go at war and do not keep your promise when the time comes. Declare war by yourself when you want.
3) Do not let other civs get into joint wars against you. It greatly impacts the amount of tribute that you can earn. Instead, prevent this by declaring war against any civ that you suspect it could have reason to make such a move against you. Usually, that is your neighbour, but sometimes it can be a far away civ. For this reason, especially when you don't have a strong military that deters others from attacking you, you need to act pre-emptively and declare war yourself, especially against people who don't like you. Always denounce the HOSTILE civs and if there's no reason to be at peace with them, just declare war, even if it's a cold war.
4) When you are in a golden age, your ability to generate tribute increases by a huge amount. For this reason, a good tactic that can be used is to be careful to have at least 6 TURNS of golden age still available, and declare war on all civilizations (except maybe your friends, but it's unlikely you have any), and do so IN THE SAME TURN. This step is of critical importance. This way, you will be able to make peace with them later, and their tributes will increase greatly because you have such a strong economy during the golden age.
5) When you obtain the tributes, ALWAYS start with the POOREST civilizations. Increase your GNP to the highest value that you can before making the peace and then take the highest amount that you can. (usually the maximum is half).
This way, when you make peace with the richest one, you will have a higher GNP from the deal and you will get much more Gold/Turn from him.

6) When you obtain a city (either through conquest, tribute or because you bought it outright) do the following steps:
-if there are any, be sure to get the Works of Art in your cities.
-sell the most expensive building
-sell the city to the civ who is willing to pay a good amount for it. If that civ is far away, it will give close nothing for it (1-3 gpt). But if the civ is in proximity with the city it will be willing to give high values depending on citizen size and his opinion of you. This will be something like 45-150 gold/turn. It can be critically profitable. If there is nobody willing to give a high amount of gold to you, then you can consider to donate the city to somebody in order to hinder him. (it causes happiness problems, and if he has an ideology and enters -20 happiness and is not Content, you can cause a revolution by this tactic in his empire).

7) Never accept any kind of bribe for you to go to war with somebody. This is a big mistake that limits your ability to generate tributes. Simply declare war by yourself instead. It will allow you to make peace sooner.

8) Before declaring war against somebody, be sure to turn him against others as you see fit by paying him to go to war. If you consider this an exploit, then don't use this tactic. You can also abstain from buying cities outright if that bothers you but in general, I consider that the practice is acceptable and legal, especially considering the ridiculous amounts of cheats that the AI uses against you and the fact that it has bonus production when building Wonders, too, despite that most online guides wrongly say that they don't. The bonus is such that Cristo Redentor, for example, would require something like 937 or 967 (forgot exact value) hammers instead of the normal 1250 hammers.

MOVING ON....TIPS & TRICKS

I will try to describe how a game might look using this strategy and also some general tips to use.

Game begins


Turn 0 - Settling - This guide is not about settling but because you will be going to war early, I have decided to mention that you could/should take into account to settle on a hill if the area seems too exposed. (You WILL declare wars) Settling on a hill loses the Windmill but you will be much more able to repel the attacks that come your way. For huge map size, there is another utility in settling on a hill: the fact that you will be able to build the scouts faster.
Unless you have a reason not to, settle a hill and be willing to lose 1 turn to do so.

Turn 0-20 (Scouting phase, planning expansions and first early wars)

- Aggressive scouting. Analyze your dirt and act accordingly. Regardless of what you will be doing, be it a shrine, Artemis, or Pyramid, or simply going for granary, in all the spare time, just build Scouts aggressively and also use your gold to buy scouts. They pay off 90% of the time. What you do in this phase greatly depends on what ruins you find so there is no absolute "best". Try to not waste money buying tiles but at the same time if there are powerful 3 food tiles and you can't afford scouts, buy the tiles.
- Be brave! If you meet any civilization that is likely to give you problems (Zulu, Greece, America, Attila, etc), declare war upon contact if your units are safe that turn. The best way to tackle a nasty neighbour is a swift declaration of war. Do not waste time over this. Simply declare war but continue your scouting, do not engage in combat unless you can steal workers/settlers. That early in the game he won't really react to your war because he lacks the units to do so.
- try to get a CS target to steal a worker from. If that CS is hostile and has less utility (Mercantile), then take into consideration to be at war with him constantly, to farm workers and for XP on units.
- never build a worker early game, unless you have a very strong reason to do so (you failed to capture one) and always sell all the stuff that you get early (luxuries, horses, embassy)
- if you get an early Culture Ruin, you can consider to pick Liberty and go Full Liberty ASAP and found a religion this way. If not, use your best judgement to decide if it will be Tradition, Liberty or Honor. If you pick Liberty consider also building Pyramids. As a general rule of thumb, never be defeated on a wonder. If you aren't sure you can do it, don't even try. If you pick Honor, you must use it to kill or cripple a neighbour quickly with the second policy. Citadel into his capital, like this. Maybe kill him, maybe just farm him. Your call. (the picture is just to show how to place the citadel, of course it's not that early in the game)
- Never assume Tradition first is always the best. Granted, most of the times, it tends to be. But especially in jungle starts, it isn't. Or if you need Liberty to found your religion.
nearcitycitadel.jpg



- look for a possibility to forward settle somebody and threaten to capture his luxuries (via a great general or by buying tiles). for example, in the picture below, I forward settled Brazil and I am sure to steal 2 of his luxuries, that I do not have in my empire, crippling him, while growing stronger myself. My first general crippled China like above, and the second one will found a citadel exactly on the hill, also providing defense from naval attacks.
forwardsettle.jpg


Turn 20-35: early game stuff: steal workers, get pantheon, do barb quests

- Faith ruin trick: if you can save a ruin or more, reliably, until turn 20, DO SO. After turn 20, there is a chance that a ruin will get you faith and you can easily found a pantheon this way. If you a Shoshone, you have good chances to do this and you have an almost guaranteed pantheon WITHOUT building a shrine.

- Scout trapping: At some point you will be meeting scouts from some other civs in the game, including ones that are far away. If you are close with your units to a scout like this, declare war on that civ and attack the scout, but do not kill him. Try to surround him with units and farm XP off him. You need to obtain your first great general, and you will use it to neutralize one of your neighbours or obtain some sort of advantage. (luxuries, natural wonders, etc) I call this "Scout Trapping" and it is a greatly efficient and reliable way to obtain the first two generals. Of course, this is used only after the race for ancient ruins has ended. Note that it is very useful when the enemy doesn't yet have Optics, otherwise he would escape. I farmed up to my third general from this scout and from another one trapped in my empire. Never drop him below 25 HP because he might suicide into you. Get Survivalism 3 in order to farm efficiently.
Scout trapping.jpg


- you need to be very active and aware in this phase and that can grealy ease up your game. Get as many quests done for the CS's after they appear. Secure your territory and try to have a compact empire. Try to get some friendships going.
Alternatively, if somebody is doing very bad in the game (maybe because he was attacked by Attila), just declare war on him and see if you can start getting something out of him before he/she dies.


Turn 35-70: possible friendships and the first tributes

- There is a short window of opportunity in this phase where you have some chances to make a friend or two. After the early game this window will close because people will start hating you for all the nasty stuff that you constantly do and the diplomatic penalties will start to not be so irrelevant anymore. If you judge that you can profit from a friendship and enough time has passed since you met, give the civ with whom you desire friendship 5 gold per turn for free and if he denounced anybody, denounce that civ yourself. This will improve relations and make a friendship likely. In the next few turns, be sure to propose that he becomes your friend and if he doesn't want to, prepare to declare war on him. You don't want to lose that 5 gold per turn for nothing.

In this period of time you need to do all the normal stuff. Build your cities (3-4-5). Improve luxuries and resources. Try to get friendships with civs that are far away, the ones you didn't attack to trap their scouts. Be aware of what happens in the game, who is attacking whom and start to manipulate them. Work towards your great general production. Squeeze in a library when it is the time to do so.

-If possible, get loans. If anybody is so unwise as to befriend you, just get as many loans from him as you can. You can get money at the rate of 51 for 2 gold per turn or 204 for 8, or 1020 for 40 gpt. Get all that gold!
Sell your stuff to somebody else, not to your friend. You want him to generate money for you.

- get cash from war: If you can make peace with a civ that you are at war with, and that civ has GOLD, try to exchange some resource with him in exchange for the gold in the process of making peace. You can greatly speed up your game using this gold for many things depending on what you need: buy settlers, libraries, scouts, maybe pay a cultural/faith CS with gold quest to sequre your religion. You will be declaring war again in 10 turns anyway.

- get the first tributes: Some civs that haven't managed to do well in the game are now willing to give you TYPE 3 tribute. Before you make peace and get their gold, be sure to improve your GNP to the highest value that you can.
Sell your excess luxuries. Buy and work markets if possible, if there aren't other priorities for your cash. If you are close to your golden age, wait to be in golden age. If you have a friend, buy Gold/Turn using your Gold, you can do this at a profitable rate of 33 gold for 1 GPT. Make no mistake, it's you who are profiting from this in the long run. You will get your gold back soon enough from him anyway.
If you discovered Guilds don't forget to Set your cities to Wealth production during the peace-making.
This early gold (maybe it's 10, maybe 15, or 20+ GPT (per civ), will help you greatly from now on.
- If there are civs that you know and they aren't your friends, declare war on them. Declare war on everybody that isn't your friend.
- don't be too moral. If/when a friendship is no longer useful to you, and for example you have too much debt to that civ, just declare war on him.

Edited to continue to PART 2

Turn 70 - 180 (the midgame race to Radio)

This part will be more general because what you want to do here depends greatly on your style of play and on the conditions in the game. It also depends on what Civ you are playing. If you are Ottomans, you will be having a big Fleet. If you are Zulu you might want to conquer the world with your strong land units. If you are Babylon maybe you just want to now play Sim City and grow your cities, and win by science.

Anything that you decide to do, always remember that the best way to do it is to declare war on everybody that isn't either giving you tribute or isn't useful to you in any way. Never sign research agreements, never go at war together with anybody and never allow other civilizations to declare war against you.

Turns around 70 usually mark the time when the race to found a religion has ended. Most of your efforts have been geared either into securing a religion, or, if you chose to ignore religion, into getting up your National College and your 2-3-4 cities up. Now comes the middlegame.
In this phase, you can finally concentrate on other priorities that you might have delayed, such as getting more army (if it's needed), dealing with the neighbours, if they are doing well in the game. If you crippled them, they shouldn't be doing too well.
If you haven't met everybody in the game, then this becomes a priority. If there are civs on other continents that you can't meet, and you don't already have a coastal city, you can consider setting up at least one coastal city in order to be able to build a fleet, at some point. You will later need one for Sydney Opera House wonder, anyway.
Nothing out of ordinary takes place here because it's mostly Sim City - grow grow grow, tech tech tech, mixed with some warmongering, to a various extent depending on current political situation.

The easiest and shortest victory type for all practical purposes, and the one I recommend in general if you are new to Deity and you're not sure what to go for is Diplomatic Victory. If you want to try this route, getting to Globalization will help, as will making your religion the World Religion and your ideology the World Ideology. Bring back to life any dead civ that you can. They will vote you as World Leader.

Turn 180-250+ (endgame)

If you were successful at being the first civ to enter Modern Era, the game will now offer you a very high amount of possibilities. Depending on what Ideology you choose the game can develop differently, but you are pretty much sure to win now, only needless mistakes or being Nuked can cost you the game. What matters now the most is to be careful about a small number of things and you'll eventually win the game around turn 300 by Science or even faster with Diplomatic victory. Cultural/Domination are less likely but still of course very doable if you really want to. They tend to take more time.

Things to avoid in Modern Era.

1)
Do not let your planes die due to interception. Fighting with planes can make you sloppy. It's easy to lose 325 production instantly with a single click because you didn't care about being intercepted. On sea, don't let your ships fall prey to Submarines. Use a Privateer to capture an Submarine, if possible, so that you don't have to build one yourself. It's much easier to lose units due to negligence after the Modern Era.

2) Avoid unhappiness by planning ahead. You can calculate exactly to see if somebody will give you ideological pressure and by how much. If you had strong culture (especially if you won World Fair), there should not be that much of a problem. If there is a possible problem and if you rely on too many bought luxuries to stay happy, it's best to start dumping all new policies into things that give you Happiness.

3) Do not let anybody close to you obtain nukes - cripple them before they get there, alternatively never be at war with them and be sure to keep them in wars with other civs.
Another option is to just discover Advanced Ballistics and vote to Ban Nukes. (I do not recommend this option, because it requires that you sacrifice a better tech path and a more useful World Congress resolution, but the option exists.)

Moving on to particular things. (huge size, pangaea or continents, standard speed)

FIRST BUILD ORDERS & TECH PATHS

There are many paths to go depending on the starting terrain and resources. For example if you have many Wheat or Deer resources you need to rush the Granary. If you have Desert, Jungle, or Tundra you might want to rush the Shrine. If you have at least 3 forests you can build either Temple of Artemis or try to see if you can build the Pyramids. What you do also depends on te ruins you find and what you discover in the world. (i.e. If you discover a Natural Wonder that gives faith, rush a settlerand go for it and it should secure your religion.)

Scenario 1 : you build Temple of Artemis (a very good wonder). On an average start you can reliably build this wonder on Deity if you have 3 forests in 3-tile range of the city. If there are no forests you cannot reliably build this Wonder.
requirement: You will finish it at maximum turn 31. Can be done later but if you fail beyond this turn, you shouldn't have started it.
Steal a worker from a civilization or from a CS and also or get one from Liberty social policy.
Each time you earn up to 140 gold buy a scout if you have all the tiles you need, if you don't just buy tiles that you need instead.

Tech: Archery > Mining > Animal Husbandry > Pottery > depends on your location > etc
Build: Scout, Scout, Scout* > Temple of Artemis > Granary > Scout > Scout or Settler
*if you can start building Artemis after the second scout, do so. Do not waste any production.


Scenario 2: build Pyramids (arguably the best wonder in civ5). On an average start you can reliably build this wonder on Deity if there are 3 forests in 3-tile range of the city.
requirement: You will finish it at maximum turn 35*. Can be done later but if you fail beyond this turn you shouldn't have started it.
Tech: Mining > Masonry > Pottery > Animal Husbandry > Bronze Working > etc
Build: Scout > Scout > Scout > Scout*> Pyramids > Granary > Scout or Settler
*start building Pyramids as soon as it becomes available.

Scenario 3.
(most common) You do not build any early wonder.
If you need a shrine to found a religion, build a shrine as soon as it becomes available, and build it while starving, if needed.
Build 6-8 scouts on pangaea type and maximum 4-5 on continents. After this you build infrastructure (granary, library, etc)
On just "standard size" maps, build maximum 4 for pangaea and maximum 3 for continents.

Tech: Pottery > Mining > Animal Husbandry > Bronze Working > Writing > etc
Build: Scout > Scout > Granary if you have resources for it or Shrine if not > Scout > Scout > Scout > Scout > Settler > Settler > Settler > Settler > Library > etc



SOCIAL POLICIES (personal evaluations)

Tradition (best in approx 45% of times)

Tradition is taken usually when you don't build Wonders, and when you don't rely on Liberty to obtain your first Prophet in order to found your religion. It's also good when you have high growth resources and growth potential in the capital. It's also good for extra city strenght if capital city is too exposed and not on a hill. It can be a good option to complete.
Amounts of tribute that you can earn are much higher with Tradition 6 because it greatly increases GNP value. For this reason, Tradition should always be taken and finished even in cases where Liberty is finished first.

Liberty (best in approx 45% of times)

Liberty is taken if you have a harder start (poor start location), and/if you want to get a religion by choosing Prophet from Liberty finisher policy. It's also good for getting early wonders done because it increases worker rate and gives a bonus worker. Liberty can be stronger than Tradition if it is used to have a religion because a civilization with a religion is almost always better than the same civilization without a religion.

Honor (best in approx 5% of times)

Honor is taken if you think that you can use the second policy that gives you a Great General in order to put a citadel in melee range of a neighbouring civilization that can give you problems later (Zulu, for example). I think that Honor is not the way to go most of the times and that the first general should be obtained by going to war.

Piety (best in approx 5% of times)

Piety is almost never the best route to go as the first policy tree. It can be the best secondary social policy tree in a religious strategy. It can be used to generate incredible amounts of extra tribute and income especially if it is taken after finishing either Liberty or Tradition.
It could in theory be useful to civilizations such as Byzantine that need to found a religion or else play without a unique ability or to Maya who have a unique shrine that also gives science.
Beyond that there is little reason to choose Piety only because the alternatives are so strong.

IDEOLOGY

- Freedom is the best Ideology for this strategy if you have 2 bonus social policies.
-Taking Voluntary Army ensures you will also have a strong army and not just a strong economy. You can finally deal with your enemies with adequate forces.

If you don't have 2 bonus policies for Freedom, pick an ideology where you have 2 bonus policies. As a rule of thumb, if you are ever in the position to choose an ideology without 2 bonus policies, this means that you made too many mistakes in the game and need to analyze what went wrong.


TRADE ROUTE USAGE

Tributes that you can earn while you send caravans for gold to other civilization can be much, much higher. However, for important reasons (food and production from them are better most of the times), I do not recommend that you use caravans to generate gold, instead they must be used this way:

1) Always send food to the capital city or to another city in Pre-Industrial Eras, unless you have happiness problems and sending food would be a waste. In that case, send production.
Also send production if you have very important reasons like building a World Wonder (such as Sistine Chapel or Taj Mahal)

2) Send production <anywhere> during World Congress Projects such as World Fair, International Games, or International Space Station. Also send production in the end-game when growth no longer has the same impact (After Atomic Era, usually)

3) It can be worthwhile to send caravans to a city state in order to complete it's quest, if it is an important city state and you really need that influence.

4) If you are about to obtain tributes from very rich civilization and you could extract more gold from them if you had a higher GNP, then it could be advisable to use any caravan that happens to be free to send it somewhere to generate gold. The bonus gold generated this way would be much higher.

WORLD CONGRESS

Try to meet all the civilizations as quickly as you can, this way you have a big chance to get to make a proposal when the Congress is founded.

What to propose?

- if something went wrong and you are too behind scientifically, Scholars in Residence is an option. If the game went well avoid this.This is just a bail-out option for you.
- if you have high enough production or if you can increase your production in the next 30 turns (check demographics to see values), then propose World Fair.
- if your production is very low and can't improve it, propose something that you think it can help you, like banning a resource that you don't have, and your enemy has.
- propose International Games
- propose World Religion (when you can pass it) if you have any of yours, of course.
- propose World Ideology (when you can pass it)

VERY IMPORTANT - PROJECT PRODUCTION OVERFLOW
Bonus Tips to win World Projects such as World Fair


Because of how the game engine calculates production (your production is contributed only after the whole turn has passed, not just yours, but it contributes the production of the AI's exactly after they end their turn this creates a weird situation where despite the fact that you are the first player to act, you will be the last player to contribute production to a World Project. For this reason, what this can mean in some instances, for practical purposes, YOU HAVE A TURN LESS THAN THE AIs to contribute production. However, weirdly enough, you also have a big advantage over them, and that is - they don't use the production overflow to generate extra production for projects, and you will!

Besides building/buying as many production buildings as you can/need, (workshop, factory, windmill, etc) and sending trade routes with production to cities,

Project Production overflow

- create production overflow in all cities by ensuring either that

1) what you are building at that time (can be a production building such as factory), will be finished just in time, in the turn where selecting the World Project becomes available.
2) Build the cheapest building/unit that is available (must be finished in 1 turn), so that it will be finished exactly in the turn where selecting World Project becomes available.
3) In some cases the best way to generate overflow is to SELL your shrines in all your cities and then select to build it again 1 turn before the rush for World Project starts. This way, for example, a city that is generating 100 production, will build the shrine for 40 production, and in the next turn, it will contribute 160 production instead of just 100! Do this in all cities for maximum effect. This will give you a big head-start and help you win.

Bonus tips to win Projects

1)
Make sure that all civs with higher production than you (if there are any), are at war with as many other civilizations as you can bribe them to be. You can declare war yourself if you want.
2) Generate unhappiness in civilizations that have higher production, by buying their unique luxuries and/or by gifting/selling them cities that you don't need (from conquest or that you bought yourself) This way, their production will be reduced, allowing you to contribute more!
3) If you have excess Great Generals you can now use one or two to steal some Hills or Manufactories or whatnot from somebody or just to get more territory in newly founded cities, if you have any (see 4)

4) When you see that World Fair is proposed as a resolution or if somebody else proposes it, and if you have a too small production in your empire to win the project race, you need to found a few new cities, so that your production will allow you to win. In 30 turns time, you have enough time to do that. This extra production will be very useful.
5) Be sure to be in a golden age during a World Project construction. You have 30 turns time to prepare to obtain a Great Artist, or to have a normal Golden Age on standby. (if you need 50 more happiness for a Golden Age, just delete excess happiness in order to be able to trigger it just at the right time when you need).

SPY USAGE

Mastering Espionage in civ 5 is not a trivial task. Spies can do incredibly useful things for your civilization. It is a rather complex topic that I would rather address in it's own topic. However, some general tips:

1) know that AI cheats and have different rules for how their spies work, compared to yours. This is more of a game awareness tip. For example, a civ was able to steal a tech and at the same time kill one of my spies, despite having a single spy (Renaissance, non-England). This is impossible to happen by normal rules, to the best of my knowledge. The AI cheats in all aspects of the game, and Espionage is not an exception. I would also assume that their spies are replaced faster, but this is just an educated guess.
2) Initially, you can/should use your spy in order to steal techs. Usually, you should steal from a capital with high population. But do not steal from anybody who is a tech leader, preferably not from England, and also, if you send a spy and notice that the player has 1 turn until he finishes University/National College/Public School, just leave the city and go back to the same city again, because if you remain there, the Spy will not use that potential for his first stealing attempt. You will lose 3 turns, but you will gain more, trust me. For example, my spy reached a city, he was going to steal in 23 turns. I noticed Darius was building National College in 1 turn. I left the city and came back again, and after 3 turns, I was now going to steal from him in 14 turns. So I won 6 turns by doing this trick.
3) If you need to pass a resolution such as World Religion, you can use your spy or spies as diplomats and buy support from people, usually from people who hate you the least. In 30 turns time, a single spy can get support from 4-5 civilizations.
4) Start using Coups if you aren't already. The best way to use coups is when the effect of a failure is not something that would greatly impact your game plans, and when you have no influence in that CS anyway. Always have a pledge to protect in place first, as it increases your influence there and, by consequence, the chance for a successful coup.
5) Rigging is something useful to do when you really need to ensure the ally status of a particularly important City-State that you do not want to lose. Maybe because it is placed in a very strategic position. Having a Spy doing rigging there will make Coup attempts less likely by maintaining a high influence there and by competing versus other spies trying to do rigging there.

ARMY COMPOSITION in pre-Modern eras (land)

The main damage dealers in are ranged units (Archer-type). Have as many as you think you need. Also, try to promote them to Gatling Guns only after they get their bonus range promotion. Other than that, try to have:

1) At least 2 Warrior-line units promoted, one with Shock3 and one with Drill 3, both with the Cover promotions, and then the other useful promotions. This is so that you can fortify certain key positions, should you need to do so. Citadels must be fortified to ensure that they are not easily pillaged. A warrior-type fortified in a citadel with these promotions will never die if he is not in obsolete form, and most of the times he will not die even if he is obsolete. (Pikeman vs Rifleman) In the same way, Scout with Survivalism 2 and fortified will survive a Musketman attack, making early scouts relevant in combat a very long time.
2) At least 2 Cavalry-type units promoted, in the same Shock/Drill fashion (used to capture cities and finish off units, and steal workers, pillage improvements)
3) All promoted scouts that also have Medic 2 promotion can be used in wars to aid units, otherwise then can be kept in garrisons. Any scout with Scouting 3 can be useful for his ability.
4) Having a few promoted siege units is always nice but until Artillery their usefulness is questionable in most situations because of their lesser ability to move and shoot in the same turn and also because of their own vulnerability in that they aren't able to fortify for extra defense if needed. Artillery is great to have but is vulnerable to Bombers in the early Modern Era. For this reason I do not recommend having an army that relies too much on Siege units.

WONDERS TO BUILD

Building wonders is not extremely critical to the Deity gameplay. I would not advise that any strategy be based on always getting a certain wonder. For this reason, the following represents only my general tips about the Wonders from personal experience and should be taken as such. Wonders that are not mentioned are too unlikely to be built or are too weak to be mentioned. If there is a window of opportunity for you, try to build:

- Pyramids/Temple of Artemis (you can't do both) - best wonders in the game, hard difficulty
- Oracle - bonus is strong and helps to finish Liberty or Tradition much faster, average difficulty
- Porcelain Tower - decent and low difficulty
- Big Ben - decent and low difficulty
- Brandenburg Gate - powerful bonus, low difficulty
- Louvre - decent bonus, average difficulty
- Neuschwanstein - great bonus, low difficulty
- Hubble Space Telescope - great bonus, low difficulty
- Eiffel Tower - good for it's deny value, average difficulty
- Cristo Redentor - weak bonus, low difficulty
- Sydney Opera House- great bonus, low difficulty
- CN Tower - great bonus, low difficulty
- Ideology wonders - great bonus - low difficulty


POSSIBLE QUESTIONS:

Q1: How will I survive the early game wars if I declare wars so quickly?
A1: I do not do anything that special and I can do it. So can you. Fortify units in key places, use the power of many scouts and of the 2 early great generals. If you need, take Tradition for strong city attacks. If you really want to be safe the whole game, just take Honor and put a citadel near your capital. Fortify a warrior type in it and it will never die.

Q2. Do I really earn enough gold by declaring war on so many civilizations? Without having almost no army, even?
A2: Well, yes, unless 700 Gold per turn in Industrial era seems a low amount to you.

Q3. Is this a bug or something?
A3. This is most probably a WAI feature. (working as intended). Is it a bug when a civilization far, far away, decides to give me his last city when he doesn't have any army? If no, then Gold Tributes are no bug either.


Well, that's kinda it...
I am sure my guide could have been a little more detailed but I will be sure to answer any questions especially objections to how such a weird strategy can work in a Deity game.
Apologies for any spelling mistakes that may have remained in this guide, I will correct them when I notice them.

Thank you for reading my guide for Deity play and I hope at least one Immortal player crushes Deity using my strategy.

- With respect, Tiberiu
 
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Tiberiu

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To illustrate the power of the strategy I want to post an example from the game I recently started with Zulu. (Huge, inland sea)

I was planning a full military game with Tiberian strategy from the start but because of my nice start location and because my scouts were very productive with the barb camps and because I was successful in founding my Religion I then decided to just play a normal, Science focused 7-city Liberty game and only start chaos in the Modern Era. But, as we will see, things would change...

This was the start. I spawned in grasslands with river and mountain and 3 food in sight.

zulu turn0.jpg


Start description:

- I went for only 5 scouts with a starvation-built Shrine as soon as it was available. Decent bonuses from Ruins (3 citizen, 2 Culture, 1 upgrade to Spearman, 1 Animal husbandry, 3-4 junk). Failed to get the pantheon I wanted but got one which would prove better anyway. Scouts were very efficient with barb camps and I was sure that I would get my religion. I managed turn 66.
- Went for Full Liberty for mass expansion and worker speed (a lot of farms needed). Decided to stop at 7 cities but there were definetly spots for even 10.
- Played mostly peaceful, only stealing 1 Settler as Worker from a neighbour but remaining at cold war with him with almost no engagement. Both of us wanted tribute from the other until, weirdly enough, around turn 90 we made clean peace and next turn became friends. (lol)

statistics in turn 100 with peaceful play:

-110 science (47 pop)/+0 gpt/7hap/+70 culture/+9 faith/ 9/24 CS Allies
-Religion founded 5th in T66.
- 11 civs met, 19/24 CS met, 6 natural wonders discovered.
- army: 2 Spearman,5 Scouts, Horseman,Catapult, 7 workers, 2 caravans.
- 6/12 in scores and Good Demographics.
- 2 DOF.


Then, in Turn 102, with 3 turns until 7-city National College ready, I noticed that I failed to adequately keep surveillance on one of my neighbours and he would declare war the next turn. (had in sight 1 Swordsman, 1 Pikeman but with Capital at 16 defense and Masonry still undiscovered I knew the danger is very high, and I would be proven right.)
My small army was far away and the 1000 gold I had at the start of the turn was used to get one more Maritime CS ally. Overconfidence in games that trigger this kind of silly mistakes sometimes.

This quickly escalated in turn 105 when I decided to start using my strategy full blown:
Siam_Attackt105.jpg


I wouldn't just let such a great game be spoiled by this mistake, even though I knew that I lost my chance to make a record for Modern Era turn time. 155 was now a more realistic time so a 10-turn delay.

The first course of action was to accept that I made a mistake and switch plans. (I wanted to go for Astronomy for Observatory and leave Masonry undiscovered to maximize Spy Stealing rate.) Thankfully Masonry would be ready in 1 turn, so I put it to be discovered the next turn. Decided that I cannot allow my neighbour to declare war on me, so I declared war on him to prevent this. (very important)

Went from Science based game in full war mode in all cities (switched all cities to Chariot Archer production and maximized production).
I desperately needed 400 gold to buy a wall and 370 to buy an Impi. I had nothing to sell anymore.

Siam's aggression meant that I need to end peaceful play or risk losing my Capital.

First, I needed to declare war on anybody who I was neutral with or who I wasn't doing business with. This has 2 purposes: to prepare to obtain tributes, and to ensure my CS allies remain mine.
Secondly, I needed to declare war on anybody to whom I sold luxuries (I needed to sell these to my 2 friends for gold, before I DOW them.)
I kept 2 trading partners because I had a lot of excess stuff (horses, luxuries).
I had no kind of money for any bribing whatsoever.

After buying my wall, with the help of 7 chariot archers that spawned quickly in the cities, and rush buying an Impi, I managed to successfully repel the attack.

In turn 112, just 10 turns since the initial panic started, and 10 turns of Tiberian Strategy,
I ended up here:
147 gpt_turn 112.jpg


- No debt (I had 70 debt before) 11 CS allies, +142 GPT from tributes alone in turn 112. Not too shabby.:)
It should cover the 400 gold I wasted for the walls.
The worst effect is losing Spy Stealing rate due to Masonry being now discovered, but, you can't have it all.
 
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rgduck

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Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
33
Whoa! I definitely didn't know this.

Your guide is super-detailed, and I don't mean to diminish your contribution by oversimplifying it, but let me confirm that I understand the basic concept:
  1. When making peace offers, the AI considers your military strength *and* your economic strength. As a result, you can get tribute from a poor civ that has you outgunned.
  2. Tribute you get from one civ contributes to how another civ perceives your economic strength. As a result, you can get tribute from rich civs by declaring war on everyone, then making tribute peace deals with the poorest civs first.
 
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Tiberiu

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Whoa! I definitely didn't know this.

Your guide is super-detailed, and I don't mean to diminish your contribution by oversimplifying it, but let me confirm that I understand the basic concept:
  1. When making peace offers, the AI considers your military strength *and* your economic strength. As a result, you can get tribute from a poor civ that has you outgunned.
  2. Tribute you get from one civ contributes to how another civ perceives your economic strength. As a result, you can get tribute from rich civs by declaring war on everyone, then making tribute peace deals with the poorest civs first.

Hello, and thank you for your interest in this strategy! Yes, what you said is correct! It's exactly like that. Especially point 2. Because if you took lump sum of gold instead of GPT, the tribute you would get from others when making peace would not increase. your economy is only measured in GPT that you make overall from any source. This possibility makes wars very profitable, regardless if you engage in them or not. You can make war with somebody far away and make a lot of money this way. There is only one catch, and the catch is that you must not be afraid to declare war and of course to have a good sense of defensive combat. (knowing how much damage units receive, etc). If AI's declare war vs you, it will take way too much time until they can make peace and they won't be as willing to give tribute, from my experience. Being the aggressor and the one who starts the war gives you much more control on the peace making and on the other diplomatical aspects in the game. Even Guarded and Hostile civs can be manipulated. Even more importantly, many times, when declaring war on a HOSTILE civ, you can, for example make peace, and during that first turn of peace he will turn FRIENDLY and you can buy his luxuries that you need for only 9 GPT or 28 GPT for those that aren't in multiple quantities. You can also obtain Open Borders this way, which at peace you would not be able to, vs a Hostile civ.

Also, even more important is that you can increase your gold per turn to ridiculous amounts by using GPT that isn't even yours (GPT from deals). For example:

say there are 7 civs in the game except you: you declare war on just 4 and use strategy to obtain GPT from them and make peace. You then declare on the other 3, and do the same. THEN after 10 turns you declare war again on the first 4 and this time you will get an even bigger amount from them because now you have the GPT from the other 3. Basically you invest money that isn't yours to get even more money. And then you can use this huge GPT to either abuse the AI (buy their cities and then declare war), or buy all the CS in the game. :crazyeye:

Peaceful play just isn't an option for me. :lol:
 

Sholugo

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Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
8
Wow, thanks a lot for this information, I always ask my self how can I get more gold when I make peace with an AI? nice.
I will use the Tiberian Strategy in my next game, the problem is that I found to easy the DiploV and SV is doable most of the time, I enjoin more the DomV, do you have an extra tip for domination?
I am a noob on Deity, in my first incursion in the level I was trying a DomV with Harun al-Rashid, big Pangea, epic pace, in the turn 366 I saw more difficult the domination victory and an easy opportunity for diplomatic victory and I archived it in the turn 406.
As you say, peaceful play isn't an option for me :D.
It is so glad to see new deity guides for those of us that are in the way to learn this beautiful game :thumbsup:
Also, I apologize for spelling mistakes.
 

Tiberiu

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I will use the Tiberian Strategy in my next game, the problem is that I found to easy the DiploV and SV is doable most of the time, I enjoin more the DomV, do you have an extra tip for domination?
It is so glad to see new deity guides for those of us that are in the way to learn this beautiful game :thumbsup:
Also, I apologize for spelling mistakes.

Hello, friend. Do not be so modest, if you beat Deity the game says "Only the best players in the world will beat this difficulty. :king:." Thanks for your interest in trying out this strategy. Let me know if you manage to obtain tribute by how I described (don't forget to switch all cities on "Wealth" when you make peace, too. )

I do have a few tips regarding domination victory and I agree with you that SV and DV are the most doable of all. The thing is, on Deity, unless you are playing with a civilization like Mongolia, Arabia, or Huns, and other civs that have very powerful special units that can easily abuse the AI and other city states with their unique abilities (Keshiks are basically Artillery on steroids unlocked in the Medieval), engaging in wars can be a bit troblesome because of single reason, and that is what I am going to describe below.

In civilization, you must do well against ALL civilizations in the game. Concentrating on military in the early game can make you totally defeat your neighbours if that is your desire, but it comes at the cost of remaining back in Science against the others who are far away. (because you built military instead of libraries and universities) This sometimes leaves you in a worse position than it would be if you simply concentrated on science in order to get to Modern Era first. A possible exception is if you manage to be Friend/Ally with 1-2 Militaristic City states early game, so that they will supply you with units, this way you can do both at the same time, I mean, you can both go to war with units that you didn't lose resources to build AND to build libraries/universities in order to tech quickly. In my experience, the best way to play civ is to make sure that you are doing well against everybody in the game, not just against your neighbours. The problem with Domination Victory on Deity, is that your units become obsolete a little too fast on Standard Speed. On slower speeds the military is more relevant and has more time to aquire promotions, making it more possible to play with big army. Playing with big army works great on Duel, Tiny or Small maps but in my opinion isn't as good for Standard size or larger. For this, I have the following tips, more or less general tips because they work not only for Domination Victory but for any type of victory. If you play on Epic it should your army obsoletes more slowly so it translates in a slightly lower difficulty in conquering. By this logic, "Quick" should be the hardest speed and "Marathon" the easiest. You can check to see if this holds up, I think you will notice the difference.

Many guides/articles about domination victories in very short amount of turns (100-150) are obtained by cheating with allowing promotions to be saved for instant healing and/or by using S/L. In a normal way, it's much harder to obtain quick domination victories because units would die too fast due to obsoletion and due to the fact that you can't allow risky actions to take place just because you know that you won't reload. (I.E you wont think like "I'll just try to capture this now and if my unit dies, I'll just reload"). You will have to be cautious because unlike the AI your units don't usually come out in 1-2 turns and you can't afford to lose units like they're nothing. A more reasonable time frame to win in general is between 250-300 for standard speed and that usually involves use of Bombers or maybe some artillery. I am not saying it can't be done without them but it's unlikely, especially because Crossbowmen upgrades have lower range so they lose efficiency.

If you plan on using this strategy please be aware that it's not really designed for having a big army, the army should be just strong enough to be able to defend, and to cripple your neighbours if you want to. Usually it's enough to follow just 1 rule: Do not be the last one in Soldiers! (Demographics). If you plan to conquer any cities it will require more investment, usually. Playing with a big Military is possible but I recommend that you do that after Modern Era. (Especially with taking Freedom Ideology and taking Voluntary Army asap.). I will try to give a few tips that are very good in my opinion, especially for any Pangaea - type map, and for at least Standard Size. What I do recommend instead, is to closesly follow who is doing bad in Soldiers and always declare war on them, and this way they'll give you "I Know I am staring defeat in the face" after 5 turns, and give you all their resources or cities. Don't lose an opportunity to profit from somebody else doing bad in the game. Civ is a zero-sum game.
soldiers.jpg


1. Having Honor greatly helps if you enjoy playing militarily and you want to obtain a Diplomatic Victory, especially if you want to do it quickly. I recommend that you take Honor early only in some particular cases, because either full Liberty or full Tradition tend to work better. Having said this, if you take your first 2 policies in Honor, you can quite easily overpower one of your neighbours using citadel tricks and to start farming XP, and maybe steal workers, make gold from pillaging, and other spoils of war.
I recommend Honor early mostly for Germany, Aztecs, Huns and maybe Celts. Zulu, China, England, Mongolia and Arabia could take it too in medieval for their UU to get faster XP. For naval maps, don't forget to make use of Exploration tree.

2 - Scouts are underrated early game. Most players do build only 2 from what I see and read, but if you make more they can give very big benefits that nothing else can for only 25 production. Two scouts are always better than a warrior/spearman for the first approx 100 turns of the game, at almost any task. (exploration, ruins, defense, barbarian control, army strenght.) They both defend better (because of their healing promotion) and more importantly are more efficient in clearing barbarian camps. If you follow my advice and use many of them in the early game, you need to use 2 or even 3 to be very efficient in clearing a single barbarian camp. (compared with a single strong melee unit you can use them to BLOCK the path of other civilizations or even city states that want to clear the barbarian camp. So if you have 2 groups of 3 scouts they can earn you a lot of CS Friends/Allies during early game. If you manage to clear camps for City States, they can be of great help to you! Only Mercantile ones are somehow not very useful early game because high happiness doesn't really help you much. You can see them as gold-giving city states because you can sell more luxuries if you have a merc CS ally, but that's just about it. All else being equal my priority is Culture/Food/Militaristic/Religious/Mercantile.
As a last word, after pikemen appear, scouts alone cannot kill barb cams any longer and need 1 archer or some other unit.

3. - Siege Units are very hard to be made to work because they don't receive defensive bonuses and die much easier. Always try to get "cover" promotion on them as soon as possible to improve their survival rate. A composite bowman attacking from a citadel has a much higher survivability than a catapult who is at risk of being killed in a single turn by city+ranged unit attack. For this reason I would recommend to not build siege units yourself (even Artillery is weaker than planes anyway), but if you receive them from militaristic city states you can of course try to use them. If you want to use siege units try to get them to come out with 30 XP at least and take defensive promotions.

4. Don't forget forts exist! They aren't as strong as citadels but forts are great in that they can be built even on neutral terrain, in order to prepare to station units needed to block and to created zones of control. They are good both defensively and offensively. In offense you can use them especially after you use a citadel to get in reach of a city, and later you will build forts on all ties that you can, to give safety for the army that will be stationed there, very useful for ranged XP farming. In the screenshot below, the composite bowman is in a citadel but even a fort would be useful for his survivability. It's good to know that a melee unit that is not obsolete almost can not die if he just remains fortified in a citadel (he needs all the necessary promotions but it's easy to get them from all that xp he keeps getting, even if attacked by a garrison with Tradition and God of Protection pantheon belief. The ones fortified in forts can die, but very hard. Assyria is perfect to do this type of conquering. because you can replace the swordsman with their UU and it will work wonders, and they also have extra XP due to the Royal Library.
early war.jpg


5. In a militaristic strategy Patronage can be better than Rationalism if you managed to secure a lot of CS allies. Taking both is of course possible, but Patronage also gives more possibilities than Rationalism most of the times, and also more Science (at least before the late game) and helps you in war by making sure that the CS will fight against your enemies. It depends on CS type and even on their placement but in general in a militaristic game I don't think you can go wrong with Patronage (Maybe after taking all the other policies that you want before that). A minor tip, if one of your units is doomed to die the next turn, sometimes it's better to donate it to a CS for 5 or 10 influence, in other situations I still let some scouts die because they still give me 4 XP. Or suicide-attack for 5XP.

6. Farm a lot of XP and use the extra citadels you make during the game to secure terrain and advance towards somebody's capital, or steal vital strategic resources/luxuries. Great Generals are awesome!

7. Know the rules of attack for AI: The AI attacks to kill your units. It will first attack with the city, then with the ranged units, and only after with the Melees. It will attack the weakest unit, usually, so that it can score a kill. This way you can exploit this by having a few promoted scouts with defensive promotions as "Decoy", i.e, the city will target them, instead of your other more important units. Know how much damage to expect. You can make a spreadsheet to have in use for later games. I.e Do you know at first glance at the screenshot above how much damage would any unit receive? It doesn't have to be exact but it pays off to be as accurate as possible. Also getting to know how AI behaves is of course useful in Single Player games and can make Domination Victories more easy to obtain.

As side tips, even in a militaristic game you still need science to be competitive, so, I would add:

- Never have more than 5 cities on Standard Size map because you are severely punished for each new city, it's ridiculous. This is a game design issue...developers grossly exaggerated with the penalties they gave to the player for each new city. The rewards for your civilization are not enough to compensate the penalties. The extra cost in National Wonders production and both Science and Culture is unreasonable. I have tried numerous times to make a strategy with many cities work and the conclusion is always the same, it doesn't work. Huge Size map allows a higher number because the penalties are, for some reason, lower and even the cities themselves give less unhappiness (2.4 for large and 1.8 for huge) instead of 3. On Huge size the maximum size is probably 8-10 depending on what terrain there is but even then 6 are probably enough for maximum efficiency.

- Jungle is only decent until you reach Radio for a quick Modern Era. After that, always cut jungle, the numbers for it don't add up. It lowers your science in the long run because 4 food and even 3 f 1 p is better than what jungle gives even if improved with Trade post. Trade posts take too much time to build on jungle, too. Only possible exception is for Brazil that has a decent unique improvement, or if you manage to build a religion with Sacred Path (+1 culture/jungle) but I still recommend to cut the jungle after the Modern Era.

- Research agreements are totally wasted gold. Some people might disagree with this but if you choose to believe me, then I say just use the money to do anything other and you will be better off. You don't have to believe me, just test out to see what you are getting. It's a lousy amount of Science and you receive it after 30 turns if you kept peace for 30 turns. Why would I want to force myself to be at peace for 30 turns with anybody and pay for it at the same time? Pay a CS for influence. Buy a Market. Buy a unit/tile, anything is always better than a Research agreement.

I hope that anything here is of use to you and I'll be happy to hear how your game went and about your experience. Cheers! :thumbsup:
 
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Sholugo

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Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
8
Thanks a lot, I'm sure this will help me to crush Deity, ok, I like to play always epic pace because of the military advantage, I would like to let you know my path for the levels from emperor and beyond, in the last 2 years I am trying to have a victory with each of the 43 civilizations, and I had read a lot of guides, basically my strategy, when I use to play on emperor, was full tradition, full rationalism, 4 cities, some patronage, order ideology, be ahead in science, be the first with artillery and research railroad, for the wonders I try all the modern era and beyond, only the porcelain tower before those, always tried to be allied to all the CS, and for the military, I take some the cities in the way to the "cultural capital" and after taking it, I was able to ensure my diplomatic victory without the cultural pressure.

For Immortal I read these guides:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/attila-deity-domination-guide.519905/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/domination-on-immortal-deity-a-noobs-guide.547630/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-city-industrial-era-domination-guide.529482/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/liberty-domination-walkthrough.503931/
then I change completely my way to play: more honor, autocracy, only one city or two in standard map, trying to dominate before the atomic era, always epic pace, I played 3 games with Attila for a quick DomV, turn 172, epic was the fastest, then I take a shot with Gandhi, Genghis Khan, William, Gustavus Adolphus, Haile Selassie and Harald Bluetooth, all DomV in Epic turns between 288 and 492.

Now I want to find a way to win on the deity level.

I find it very interesting do not to make RA's, I will stop to waste my gold on this, many times I have RA's and because of being a warmonger, everyone in the game goes to war against me and I lose all the RA's that I had.

Well, in 2 days I will start a game with Arabia again and I will follow some of your tips and strategy, first I will try again to dominate before the modern era on a standard map and epic pace, after this game I will try to win a deity game with Hiawatha (who is the next on my list), any kind of victory following the Tiberian Strategy, Huge map and epic pace, Pangea for both of them.

Regards, and thanks a lot again.
 

mbbcam

Prince
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Apr 7, 2012
Messages
580
Location
Cambridge
It is nice to see a guide that is so different from the usual. There must be something about Romania that encourages this :). Peddroelm is also from Romania, I believe, and he came out with one of the most interesting "different" approaches I have seen. Moreover, his videos were a hoot. I still look at some of them five years later.

I'm not sure I could make this approach work. There is far too much to remember and my memory is less good than it was. In the past five years or so I have only bothered to play one game to a conclusion, and that was using peddroelm's Honor-Commerce-Autocracy approach. It was nice to get a Deity win at last. However, I'm not a dedicated player -- more of a dabbler. I might give this a try out of curiosity, though. The problem is that I think I would need to print out several pages of instructions and I suspect I would get lost in all of the complexities. But thanks for putting up something novel ... which isn't a virus ;).
 

Tiberiu

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I'm not sure I could make this approach work. There is far too much to remember and my memory is less good than it was.

Hello mbbcam and thanks for your feedback! You can try the "lite" version of this: play a normal game like you play usually, and just make sure to check when you make peace with somebody if changing production to "Wealth" does anything for you. What's good about this strategy is that you can use this trick even if you're playing a different strategy that involves at least a small amount of warmongering. Usually there are only 2 situations when it doesn't work: 1) if you are in negative GPT for some reason (for buying luxuries at 28 gpt, for example, or you have high unit maintainance, etc), or 2) if you have too small of an army compared to that AI and he throws you the "We can make a peace deal now to forstall your utter annihilation" screen. To counter this point, you would need a few more units in order to balance army strenghts. I usually don't see this screen early game because I build many scouts and they do matter towards army strenght even if just a little. Unless these 2 apply, it's possible to obtain money very, very often just by switching to "wealth" for the peace deal.

Also one of the other "lite" tips that are associated with this is that in the early game (turn 10-25 especially), when your production is low and you don't have money and neither gold per turn, you can use war to obtain hard cash, by simple DOW and then when 5 turns pass, you can sell one luxury for 240 gold like you are friends with that civ during the peace making. Especially useful for those cases when you settled your capital on a luxury. Better to sell it for 240 gold than for 7 gpt. It can help you buy early settlers, or anything else that you need. Usually AI's have 100-200 gold even in the early game so it tends to pay off. Even embassy can be traded for 30 hard cash instead of the normal 1 gpt, sometimes for 35. Later you can't sell for 240 but you can sell for 120 or 140, 160 etc depending on how much that civ hates you. In ancient era the Diplomatic penalties are low and they don't really hate you much even if you are at war with them.

I actually discovered that they can give you more money by accident...I used to go to war often even before I knew about the fact that I can get money out of it, and sometimes noticed that, for example,
- in one turn a civilization would give me, for example, 10 gold if I ask for peace, and then the next turn, even though nothing had changed, they would give sometimes 8, or other times 12-14. I always wondered... why? How does he calculate this? First, I suspected "well, it must be the soldiers, he probably made one extra unit, for the times when he would give less, and if he gave more, I thought, ah, it means somebody must have killed one of his units somewhere... But then, I figured, oh, so I will make some few other units, and he will give me more money. But actually, what I noticed is that after I bought or built, say, 3-4 extra units, that very same civilization would give me Less. The answer was that because of the unit maintainance those units had, my gold outcome was lower. It was at that point that I started to suspect something.

I think it was a golden age trigger that made me realise it. I wanted to make peace, they wanted to give me, something, for example 10 gold. Then, I most probably exited to think about If I want to make peace at that time, and without anything related to the deal, I triggered a golden age with an artist that spawned that turn, and changed absolutely nothing else, and when I went to the peace deal making, the value was much higher than it was in the very same turn, because of extra gold from various sources. And then I realised that your own gold per turn matters, after switching to "Wealth production", the value increased even more.

This trick makes "useless" tiles like empty desert or tundra usable by building trade posts on them even if you don't intend to work them. Just have them there for usage only during peace-making deals. Sometimes it just so happens that cities or even the capital has 1-2 useless desert or tundra tiles, and I usually never bothered with them, but now I try to make sure I have trade posts there for the peace deals. Of course, other things are of higher priority but when there's nothing to do with a worker, why not build a trade post.
 

mbbcam

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I did try the "full" version of this for 100 turns yesterday, and found it very difficult to adapt because it is so unlike the way I usually play. I felt completely lost most of the time. I went Liberty and managed to build the Pyramids, though I missed a religion by a few turns, despite having a ton of faith from copper and iron, and Sri Pada. Numerous AIs taking Piety did not help. I started the same game again using peddroelm's Honor-Commerce-Autocracy strategy, and it felt much more comfortable, but that is obviously because it is so familiar to me. I might try to incorporate the "lite" version of your strategy into this run of the game and see if I can get any benefit from it. One thing I would say is that I didn't find the first 100 turns using your strategy to be as enjoyable as peddroelm's -- from which I conclude that I get most of my fun from shooting things, not building things! I guess that is why I have used peddroelm's approach so often, even if it is very difficult to pull off. I find that going Tradition is horribly tedious most of the time. Liberty I find more interesting. Taking Honor often means I hit a brick wall around T200, but I've usually lost much of my interest in the game by that point anyway. So I just quit and start another game. I think I've only finished one game in the last five years. We're all different!
 

Tiberiu

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@mbbcam. Yes, pre-Guilds, it's more difficult as there's no option for cities to be set on "Wealth" for quite a while, which is the main way in which you temporarily boost your "perceived" economy. If you built Pyramids, then you got access to 1-turn repairs, which is great. I like to keep 2 units inside somebody's borders with 2 workers and pillage every turn for a virtual ~25 gpt. Too bad about losing the religion, considering the circumstances, but sometimes it can be just bad luck, depending on your turn time. I once even had 270 faith and the prophet didn't come out in time. Sri Pada is quite cool, unfortunately in my games it tends to always be far away so I don't have access to it. The most common Natural Wonder for me and the one I have been lucky with is Mount Sinai, for some reason. Obviously this is random but that were my rolls. Do you, by chance, keep a starting save? I would like to play a game with Sri Pada.

About AI's taking piety I would like to comment that I like it when they take piety because I think it's not the best way for an AI to go, the piety AI's seem to always be doing worse than those who took something else. And being greedy I always hope that I'll manage to steal prophets who have 4-spreads for free holy sites. I'm gonna test out the Honor-Commerce-Autocracy start that you mentioned, I like testing things out. Sounds like the perfect Venice strategy... When I play with Venice I like that my army has easy access to Military Epic so all units are stronger than with other civs, and taking this H-C-A combination of policies only increases this, especially with access to those cheap and nice Landsknechts. Also, Autocracy and Venice have good synergy for stealing techs like mad with Industrial Espionage and National Spy Agency due to how easy is for Venice to have that.
 

mbbcam

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@Tiberiu. Hi, I do have a starting save, but I use a few mods that affect the saved games. One is Extended Civilopedia, another is Really Advanced Setup, and I use the part of Acken's Balance Mod that relates to his map scripts. I used to like playing with his maps because they gave a bit more space, and have left the mod turned on out of laziness. Only having the map module installed means that no game play changes are made. I use Really Advanced Setup to add a few resources or features to the map. I always play as England, and having a map without any iron is just irritating, so I use the mod to make sure there is at least some of it within reach. Coastal starts are often disadvantageous in various ways in my view, so I like to level the playing field a bit. Anyway, you might not want to go through the faff of installing mods just for this map, and if you are a purist you might not like a cooked map, even if it is only slightly altered. However, I am more than happy to share if you are still interested.

For Honor-Commerce-Autocracy, it is worth looking at peddroelm's introduction here:
or his post here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...al-era-domination-guide.529482/#post-13314644

Cheers! And thank you for an interesting guide!
 

Tiberiu

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Hi, if I understand correctly I should be able to play it even if I don't have the mods, right? If I have to install mods I wouldn't want to mess around too much with them just yet. I would be curious to play if after I finish the current game (Nizef's edge #42) that I currently have on pause around t135. I know the Really advanced setup, it's a very good mod to try out various things or experiment with the game, I have it too, but I don't use it very often. I just figured that in theory I could just make a map with it and "give" all players a Natural Wonder in proximity of 7-8 tiles, and to give myself Sri Pada. I like Really Advanced Setup especially for excluding certain civs from the game, for example if I want to play a game without ruins, this mod is perfect to ensure Shoshone doesn't play, because it would be unfair for them.

I watched the video you posted and tried to take what's good in it as it is always good to see how other people are playing to help get new ideas and improve one's own gameplay. Also skimmed through the later parts of the game. To be honest I can't help myself to say that I didn't expect certain mistakes to be done by somebody who writes guides. (not moving warrior before settling in turn 2, constantly moving units 2 tiles at a time for no reason, like at 15:59, are two examples. But, I don't want to sound too critical as I am not the type of person to want to put other fellows down. The more important problem for me would be to stay with a 23-citizen capital at turn 230 which looks too low. Not necessarily for science, but for production too. I understand the appeal of buying units cheaply combo (mercantilism, mobilization + big ben), but I think higher production still offers more options and is more reliable, and one can have both. My issue with getting Autocracy <mainly> to get Mobilisation is that I would rather take Freedom and Voluntary Army. For me Autocracy is mostly an option to take for Total War, very useful to get Frigates to come out with range promotion. But everybody has his own preferences and style.:)
 

mbbcam

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I believe you would need to install or activate three mods. One is Really Advanced Setup. The second is Tomatekh's Expanded Civilopedia Entries (which can be found on Steam workshop, and perhaps also on civfanatics). The third is *part* of Acken's balance mod (https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-for-singleplayer-and-ai-improvements.550671/). I only ever used the module that had his map script in it. This is a bit more of a faff to set up because you have to install the mod then delete the parts (folders) that are not needed.

The thing I liked about peddroelm's videos was the humour. I find them quite entertaining at times, apart from the teaching/learning aspect. And I'm no purist. I think I prefer to learn from someone who makes mistakes and recovers from them. I find that more encouraging than someone who is perfect all the time. Acken made a video in which he admitted that he was playing very badly, and I found that a help, because I realised that even the very best do not play like gods all the time, and that my frequent gaffes are not just mine alone. Indeed, I would say one learns more from when things go wrong, than from when things go right. Learning how to recover from mistakes is very valuable. Suffice to say, peddroelm probably had more influence on my view of Civ5 than anything else out there.

As for Autocracy, I have found that one of the most enjoyable reasons for taking it is the tenet that allows tanks to ignore Zone of Control. In my experience there is nothing quite like having a mass of tanks zipping around the map and getting gold for every kill from the Honor finisher. Great fun.

Incidentally, I tried the "lite" version of your strategy in a game the other day, and did not manage to get any gold at all. I selected Wealth, had more gpt than the AI, who was down to his last two cities and would have been killed in a few turns, and he would only give white peace. No idea why it didn't work. He was dead a few turns later.
 

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Tiberiu

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Incidentally, I tried the "lite" version of your strategy in a game the other day, and did not manage to get any gold at all. I selected Wealth, had more gpt than the AI, who was down to his last two cities and would have been killed in a few turns, and he would only give white peace. No idea why it didn't work. He was dead a few turns later.

Thanks for the save and for the commentary.

I can't think of a reason for why an AI wouldn't give anything especially when he is close to death, because they usually don't have any army or very little by then and should be willing to give anything, when they show the "I know I'm staring defeat in the face" screen due to the soldiers value differential. They don't give anything when they're down to one city, but as you said in your game that one was down to 2 cities. I assume your army must have been clearly bigger than his too.
 

Sholugo

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Hello, I am playing the game for domination with Arabia than I commented before, at the beginning of it, I tried some early wars but I didn't get tribute from Shaka and Harald Bluetooth even though I was first in GNP and Harald the last, anyway, I will try the complete strategy in my next game as I told.
I am doing 2 things in this game that you advised: no RA's :D and by mistake, I receive a DoW from Harald when I was at war with Alexander and my second city was totally surrounded by his army and my troops to far away to defend it, then I made the decision to sale the city to Poland before lost it, I am in that turn, I have a DoF (21 turns left, epic) with Poland and he is the leader and my east "neighbor", well, I some kind of isolated with Harald in a big mass of land in a standard Pangea map :eek:.
 

Tiberiu

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Hello, I am playing the game for domination with Arabia than I commented before, at the beginning of it, I tried some early wars but I didn't get tribute from Shaka and Harald Bluetooth even though I was first in GNP and Harald the last, anyway, I will try the complete strategy in my next game as I told.
I am doing 2 things in this game that you advised: no RA's :D and by mistake, I receive a DoW from Harald when I was at war with Alexander and my second city was totally surrounded by his army and my troops to far away to defend it, then I made the decision to sale the city to Poland before lost it, I am in that turn, I have a DoF (21 turns left, epic) with Poland and he is the leader and my east "neighbor", well, I some kind of isolated with Harald in a big mass of land in a standard Pangea map :eek:.

Hi Sholugo and thanks for your post.

Please, keep in mind that pre-Guilds technology it will be more difficult to get money, Guilds is first tech that gives you a big edge due to "artificial" temporary wealth. Early wars can still pay off due to what you can obtain from them (even if it is making an AI suicide his units into attack or making peace at the right time. I think Shaka tends to be a weak AI due to how easy it is to manipulate him into declaring war on others and keeping him at war with everybody else including city states.

You made a very good decision to sell the city to somebody else instead of losing it, this way your attaker at least doesn't have the chance to become stronger by annexing it and you have a better chance of recovering it later. The risk for a city sold this way is that the AI can choose to raze it and when that happens, that sucks. I have at times lost cities due to being greedy too, it isn't the end of the world but it can have a big impact, it's obviously a big setback to lose a city.
I think that you shouldn't have allowed Harald to bring his units so close and to let him DOW you, what I mean by this, is this: when you see an AI (especially the warmongers and those who take Honor) amassing units or heading their units towards you, it's a good defensive move to declare war at that time because it disrupts his "preparation for war" phase, where AI's seem to be doing well. They are quite good in preparing to attack you while at peace, and worse at attacking unprepared. Another important reason is that if you leave it to the AI to DOW you, he might get an ally in that war and you might find yourself attacked by 2 AI's instead of just one, and worse, joint wars take more turns to complete than "normal" turns, so the possibility to make peace will take longer with both civs. You seem to have warmonger types in your game, Alexander, Zulu, Harald, and even Poland. If you manage to deal with your neighbours you should win the game for sure, they are the biggest threat, especially if you say Poland is the leader. Did you manage to obtain any early citadels due to war? Or maybe by Honor tree? You can use those to take care of the neighbours. They are good at killing attacking units. Taking Honor with Arabia is always good I think, due to the power of the Camel Archer, bonux XP helps them to get Logistics and Range promotions quicker, and then they are very devastating.

I think that you should be OK if you manage to get your Camel Archer and exploit their ability to the fullest. You only need to pay big attention to Shaka if he is close because his unique Pikemen move 3 so they can get to a Camel Archer that attacks and then retreats and that makes them quite vulnerable vs Zulu. Thankfully Shaka should be easy to be manipulated to attack other civs all the time. Poland has those winged hussars with 5 movement that can also kill your units and I am sure he would betray you if he perceives you as weaker. Please let me know how the game goes.
 

Sholugo

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Poland made my city growth, Shaka is far away from me even though he was the first I met, Alexader is dead, I have his capital but Poland has his second city close to the mine, Poland have me on jake, he has a lot of Musketman in my territory, my Camels are sweeping Harald units but I am thinking that it was a mistake to sale the city and have open borders with Poland, I went liberty, Maybe I should make peace with Harald and be ready to fight with Poland? I will have to defend my capital and Alexander's, maybe Shaka could help but he already lost his capital with Poland and Korea is my friend but he has a DoF with Poland, the other 2 players are Kamehameha and Askia in the other cost of the Pangea. It looks hard even though I only 6 techs behind and have a nice army and economy but I don't think I will survive to a Poland's attack :cry:.
 

bobbobbybobbob

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Oh, I just wanted to add that I have a "base" knowledge of this kind of mechanic since I do a lot of deity domination. However the way you broke down this in the detalied way you did. Absolutley amazing content. This is very important to know since you obviously don't need to wipe out an AI to benefit the most. Most likely you will take their cap and sue for peace. Make them pay all the gold and sometimes luxes (to allow you to annex conquered cities and trigger CS quest). This also allow at least 10 turn of peace which means you can send all your army to the next target. After the deal is done (30 turns) or if they war or vice versa you don't need to wipe them out. Just kill their units. Maybe take a city, but leave them with 2-3 so they can give you all the gold again. Yeah sometimes you can wipe them off, but it is so fantastic to leave them as a big cashing machine for your glorious Empire.

I'm talking here about a more aggressive approach then the guide here does. I like this guide a lot. I would like to see you upload some videos with this guide in mind.

10/10. I am very impressed by this.
 
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