The Gilded Age

[Kaitzilla]

The History Channel has a nice TV series on that enchanting/horrifying period of American history when there was hardly any economic interference by big government at all. (1870-1910)ish

In fact, there was no big government.

No income tax (after 1872 anyway). No central bank. People could wheel and deal with hardly any limitations at all. What was it like?



Thanks to Zerohedge for linking it Be sure to set the quality to 720 in the top right corner and watch in full screen mode.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-21/men-who-built-america-remembering-gilded-age-part-1

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-24/men-who-built-america-remembering-gilded-age-part-2

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-25/men-who-built-america-remembering-gilded-age-part-3

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-26/men-who-built-america-remembering-gilded-age-part-4

This thread if for praising/criticising the Gilded Age

 

[Cutlass]

Take a straight line average of the economic growth per capita during the Gilded Age. Then do one for the period after WWII. Per capita growth has been far higher in the long run since WWII.

It's not an accident.

 

[Formaldehyde]

By "hardly any economic interference by big government at all", I assume you aren't referring to the laws that specifically restricted Eastern Europeans from immigrating to this country because they were more pro-union than other Europeans. Much less the direct government involvement in strike breaking at both the state and federal level that killed hundreds of people and largely kept unions from being as widespread here as they were in Europe.

You certainly can't mean the American Indians, and how they kept being pushed further and further west onto completely unsuitable land for largely economic reasons.

You must be alluding to the near complete lack of regulations which led to the Triangle Shirtwaist fire that killed 146 garment workers in a single incident. Or the complete lack of regulation in the mining industry that resulted in 18 disasters in 1907 alone, the worst of which killed 362 miners and directly led to the creation of the Bureau of Mines. Or the near complete lack of regulation in the brokerage industry which resulted in the great crash of 1929.

Indeed, what a "Gilded Age" of American history.

 

[ace99]

Pretty sure there was plenty of interference from state government. This is the period of the Slaughterhouse Cases where the Holy Empire of Louisiana granted a monopoly to one slaughterhouse driving the rest out of business. Where the Great Kingdom of New York attempted to pass a minimum wage law and began to regulate the price of milk. Where the the Mighty Republic of Pennsylvania granted monopoly to the owner of one ferry in particular allowing only them to operate.

 

[Cutlass]

It was also the age of massive subsidies to business. The railroads were built on land procured by the government and given to business. The telegraph was subsidized. States built roads and canals and harbors. The expansion of public education made businesses more productive and led to great expansions in patents. Then there were tariff interventions to give business a leg up.

 

[BvBPL]

For all the things that a history program could focus on during that time peroid the relative level of interventionist policies of the American state has to be the most God-awful boring.

Then again, History Channel.

Indeed, what a "Gilded Age" of American history.

'Tis very aptly named, for the US probably needed a fresh coat of paint over the lillies laid down after the Civil War.

 

[GhostWriter16]

It was also the age of massive subsidies to business. The railroads were built on land procured by the government and given to business. The telegraph was subsidized. States built roads and canals and harbors. The expansion of public education made businesses more productive and led to great expansions in patents. Then there were tariff interventions to give business a leg up.

I'm not saying that this is absolute proof that an absolutely free market could work, of course, but it is proof that the Gilded Age does not disprove the workability of the free market. Just saying.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I'm not saying that this is absolute proof that an absolutely free market could work, of course, but it is proof that the Gilded Age does not disprove the workability of the free market. Just saying.

At least until the entire unregulated stock market crashed, brought around global economic collapse and the rise of Hitler. Just saying.

 

[GhostWriter16]

World War One created Hitler...

 

[Ajidica]

World War One created Hitler...

No, World War I created a situation in the German government that made it weak and impotent along with massive public discontent. That Hitler ended up in power instead of Revolutionary Nazis, Communists, SocDems, or conventional Democrats is hard to draw from the assertion 'WWI created Hitler' unless you are willing to similarly say the Franco-Prussian War created Hitler.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Hitler wasn't a Revolutionary Nazi? In any case, I don't really care, the reality is that the Treaty of Versailles totally screwed over the German country, which paved the way for Hitler's entrance to power.

 

[Jehoshua]

World War One created Hitler...

actually, both of your points are simplistic. Social currents in the 18th century resulting from the implementation of democracy in continental Europe and the crumbling of the long-standing old order during the process of the industrial revolution, the experience of wars and revolutions from the radical left that this led to (and the counter-movement this spawned), the unique experience of Germany after world war one and during the great depression, and associated factors of this AND the weakness of the german state in that moment of history. All colluded to create the conditions "just right" for nazism to rise.

Hitler himself came to be by a union of his father and mother. His turn towards the ideological currents that later became nazism is likely a product of his own psychological state, his experience as a failed art student in vienna where he read anti-semitic magazines while moping about his own failure, his personal war experience in the trenches and the associated nationalism this invoked in him, and in general his own life merging into the political currents of the day.

 

[GhostWriter16]

actually, both of your points are simplistic. Social currents in the 18th century resulting from the implementation of democracy in continental Europe and the crumbling of the long-standing old order during the process of the industrial revolution, the experience of wars and revolutions from the radical left that this led too, the unique experience of Germany after world war one and during the great depression, and associated factors. All colluded to create the conditions for nazism to rise.

Hitler himself came to be by a union of his father and mother. His turn towards the ideological currents that later became nazism is likely a product of his own psychological state, his experience as a failed art student in vienna where he read anti-semitic magazines while moping about his own failure, his personal war experience in the trenches and the associated nationalism this invoked in him, and in general his own life merging into the political currents of the day.

at the bolded point. Obviously what I meant was that without World War I, Hitler could never have become the brutal, powerful dictator that he was.

 

[Leoreth]

Indeed, what a "Gilded Age" of American history.

It's a very apt name. A thin layer of gold on the outside, easily scraped off by anyone who's willing to take a closer look.

World War One created Hitler...

Hitler's parents created Hitler.

God created Hitler

Contingencies created Hitler.

 

[ace99]

No, World War I created a situation in the German government that made it weak and impotent along with massive public discontent. That Hitler ended up in power instead of Revolutionary Nazis, Communists, SocDems, or conventional Democrats is hard to draw from the assertion 'WWI created Hitler' unless you are willing to similarly say the Franco-Prussian War created Hitler.

The Spartacists did sort of screw the pooch with the pre-mature ejaculation I think. The Freikorps came in to fight them, it alarmed the German government and such things. Also Soviet Bavaria. Weird how everyone wants to coup Bavaria. What's so special about Bavaria that both the Communists and Nazi's somehow decided that yes, this was the place to be. Germans.....at least the Bolsheviks had the good sense to spawn in Petrograd and Moscow.

"Hans suggested we try to launch our uprising in the Rhineland Westphalia area but he's insane. Hey guyz whats the most conservative part of Germany with little industry and plenty of Catholicism to launch our communist uprising? We thought about Saxony but decided Bavaria was way more realistic. Because mountains."

So what I'm saying is....it's the Communists' fault to lack the good sense of timing and location

 

[Jehoshua]

at the bolded point. Obviously what I meant was that without World War I, Hitler could never have become the brutal, powerful dictator that he was.

Thats an unprovable hypothesis, and merely ones opinion. Another opinion could argue that even without world war one occuring, the social tensions inherent within that period of history made the rise of nazism exceedingly likely (one can point to fascismo in Italy for example, Italy had minimal involvement in WWI and yet fell into the arms of Benito Mussolini). At any rate we can't really know, since its all conjecture. As some historians say, historiography is an argument that never ends.

 

[Ajidica]

Hitler wasn't a Revolutionary Nazi? In any case, I don't really care, the reality is that the Treaty of Versailles totally screwed over the German country, which paved the way for Hitler's entrance to power.

By Revolutionary Nazi I ment the Strasserites and Rohm that were similar to the Brazilian Integralists or Early Fascism who were really into the national unity thing. (The Jew-Killing, not as much even if they were still anti-semites.) Hitler demonstrated he was perfectly acceptable cozying up to the centers of power whether they be the Industrialists, the remnants of the nobility, or the Middle Class who supported him quite a bit.
As far as Versailles goes, it lead to quite a bit of discontent over the loss of the Saar, war reparations, and the fact German armies were still outside of Germany when it was signed. However, simply saying it leads to widespread discontent is not the same thing as saying it lead to Hitler. There were several revolutionary or radical groups running around the Wiemar Republic who could have given Hitler a run for him money were they not more concerned about fighting each other.

The Spartacists did sort of screw the pooch with the pre-mature ejaculation I think. The Freikorps came in to fight them, it alarmed the German government and such things. Also Soviet Bavaria. Weird how everyone wants to coup Bavaria. What's so special about Bavaria that both the Communists and Nazi's somehow decided that yes, this was the place to be. Germans.....at least the Bolsheviks had the good sense to spawn in Petrograd and Moscow.

True that.
Totaly unrelated but I visited Rosa Luxemburgs birthplace while in Poland. Given how Poles love to fawn over historical figures we've never heard of, I'm surprised the guide didn't mention Rosa Luxemburg.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I thought this was apropos to the thread:

Daily Show 19th Century News

Meanwhile on the technology front, there is a new labor saving device on the market called "Chinese people". "Chinese people" because building a railroad is hard.

Wow that show is something. We have come so far in this country. I can't believe we used to exploit Chinese labor to build our technology.

 

[Carras Dad]

In any case, I don't really care, the reality is that the Treaty of Versailles totally screwed over the German country, which paved the way for Hitler's entrance to power.

but didnt the germans have free will?

 

[Leoreth]

Free will doesn't matter when you have to construct monocausal narratives.