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The Great Backtrack continues

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Sox, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Sox

    Sox Chieftain

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    So, first we get permanent buildings and yea sayers said this is totally WAD, now you really gotta think about your buildings. Silly ofcourse so they patched that out.

    Then we had the blind diplomacy. LOL, there are no numbers when Obama meets other leaders in the real world they laught. Ofcourse, this is a game that require information not socialskills so that is going.

    So what is next in the patchpipeline? I´ll bet you 10 bucks it´s SP, at a cost ofcourse.

    Any takers ? I´ll give you 2:1 odds!

    What do you think they will revert? 1upt seems unlikely but i wouldn´t be surpriced if we got some kind of more citybased happiness sometime in the future...
     
  2. Licinia Eudoxia

    Licinia Eudoxia Empress

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    So what you're saying is we should expect less "Why isn't Civ 5 more like Civ 4?" threads and more "Why is Civ 5 becoming like Civ 4?" threads.
     
  3. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    In real world a country can ask another one why it's angry. The other country can say what things exactly do upset them, and both can work a way to solve the issues. And if it works well, both will become friendly.
    Since the AI is a machine, we can't have such an interesting discussion about this, so we need numbers to simulate real diplomacy.

    Until now it worked so bad that saying the AI was just beeing intelligent and real is a poor excuse and totally the contrary of real, it was just a game oponent instead of a leader.
     
  4. PawelS

    PawelS Ancient Druid

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    Some good things from Civ4 should be back (I miss the routes of units in "go to" mode displayed on the map), but I hope the general civ5 design decisions will stay (1upt, hexes, city states and so on).

    And I hope some Civ4 features will never come back, there were some things that really enraged me, like cities disappearing from the map when someone captured them (I created a complicated Python mod to remove this "feature").
     
  5. Sox

    Sox Chieftain

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    Well, that is one way of putting it i guess. Another is that some of these "new features" arn´t features at all, just rushed programming or simply not WAD or intended.

    I think another thing that will be "reverted" is rushing buildings and units and that hammercosts will go down although i wouldn´t call that backtracking really.

    The point i´m trying to make is that things some people defended as being the new civ (basicly with "you´re afraid of change" or "go back and play civ 4 then") really arn´t and they were in fact just badly implemented, rushed or not intended at all as the opposing side claimed.
     
  6. AxelRhodd

    AxelRhodd Warlord

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    Firaxis made great effort to make civ5 very different from civ4 instead of keeping whats best from civ4 and adding new features and concepts using new technologies resulting in civ5.
    Now, when I say new technologies I mainly think of the AI side of things.
    Im not a programmer but I was expecting that in the world of code cutters there is some progress and by 2010 we would have a LOT smarter AI than 5 or 6 years ago!
    Isn't coding of AI routines progressing?

    When you compare computing power of signle core processors from few years ago to todays 4+ core multiple CPU PCs in use I would expect serious jump in quality of AI.
     
  7. Dermo

    Dermo Warlord

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    Only if the skills of the AI programmers (and the tools they have to work with) have inproved as well.
     
  8. PawelS

    PawelS Ancient Druid

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    The problem is that 1upt makes combat more complicated for the AI to handle.
     
  9. Stuie

    Stuie Laudir Agus Mir

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    I still think destroying a building should incur a COST, not provide some benefit. People don't like when you take things away; maybe a minus in happiness equal to the building's upkeep for some number of turns.

    I'm just glad that they're not caving completely and going back to the +/- system. That completely destroyed any sense of immersion. Basic information is fine; something too granular is silly.
     
  10. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    I agree, it's useful to have a bit more diplo options, but no reason to go back to +/- system.

    @ OP, why aren't you just happy that they're working hard to improve the game?
     
  11. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    Those are 2 different things. The actual numbers make the game much more interesting in my opinion. But not brining them back and having just "a few" more options are 2 totally different things.

    You may not like the stats and prefer more randomness, but why wouldn't you prefer a more developed diplomacy system with much more options than the few meaningless we got? Even if it would be more transparent than what I'd like to
     
  12. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    the current diplo system is useful, but you have to pay attention. an easy way to judge enemy ai's is by how much they offer you for any luxury. highest friendliness is 300, then 261, etc etc. if they only offer you 150 then watch out, even if the ai isn't overtly hostile yet. also, you can tell by their tone of voice and non verbal signals how they feel about you. I don't think that it's as random as most people think, you just need to understand the reasons behind the ai's thinking. rather than a +/- system I think that a simple list of things they like and things they're mad about is sufficient.

    In my current game I am on a small continent. mopped up irroquois just as the first trireme from persia came by to say hello. other continent has 2 main ai's, russia and persia. I took over 2/3 of russia, made him pay 17k gold, a major city, and 120 gpt for peace in fact. naturally he gets really meek really fast. 6 turns later he gets hostile!!! why??? well, I moved all my military to protect my persian border. I moved a couple mech inf back to the russian front and he got nice again real fast! I didn't need a +/- list to know that russia respects strength of arms.
     
  13. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    I don't want it to be usefull, I want it to be fun.

    I'll add that it's not usefull at all to know they are going to attack you, when they always will eventually.

    Yeah you moved your troops to his frontiers.

    But if it weren't that you would have built too many wonders.

    And if it werent that you would have too many cities.

    And if it weren't that you would have too few military.

    And if it werent that they would have settled near your cities and blamed you for settling near.

    And if....
     
  14. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    I just remembered this pretty recent golden comment from the official Civ 5 forums, where a Civ 5 defender thinks it's silly that people accuse AI being too warlike:

    "Can you name 1 real world relationsship between nations , close borders without a war at least every 1-2 years?"


    :crazyeye:
     
  15. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    and obviously, the Iron Curtain doesn't count no?
     
  16. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    sorry, but I won an emperor game the other day without getting dow'd even once. the diplo system is just very complex, andif you don't understand it and/or how to use it it will kill you.

    1. poc is your friend
    2. don't settle near an enemy ai
    3. c***-block enemy settlers to prevent them from settling too close to you
    4. after you have your borders set up allow ob's with all nearby civs
    5. research agreements actually help keep ai more friendly now
    6. don't go for every last penny during trades. if ai offers 300 gold for you silks, sell them for 295.
    7. gift useless items to neighbor civs (if nobody has the money to buy your gems, give them to your nearest neighbor).


    if you must dow an ai, just do it to your nearest neighbor to carve out some space, and leave him with one crappy city left so you're not a "killer". as long as that is your only dow and you maintain a decent, easily seen military (ie, on/near your borders) the ai will generally try to get you to ally with him vs other ai's.


    that reminds me of my favorite all-time movie quote:

    "The canadians have bombed the baldwins"
     
  17. Frasco

    Frasco Drunk costarrican civer

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    Seems to me cIV's diplo system was a good one, that could be made better with one little tweak:

    could be easily changed to:

    That way, we would all know why we are liked, but wouldn't know how much weight that one attitude has. Right now I just can't trace the AI's attitudes, and this is especially true when playing against a large number of AI's.
     
  18. PawelS

    PawelS Ancient Druid

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    The problem is that there are no "brothers in faith" in Civ5 due to the lack of religion ;)
     
  19. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    Like I said, I want to have fun, not exploit game mechanism. Not acusing you of exploiting. What I mean is that those "tactics" you mention look like game mechanics, not like diplomacy.

    I want leaders, not oponents. It's not I want them to be friendly, I want them to feel alive. I like pacifist gandhi as much as crazy montezuma or even shaka. The ways you show to prevent war don't seem like diplomacy gameplay at all.

    If I go into a war with the enemy of somebody at his request, he better likes me. That's so MUCH more than giving him 5g more in a trade or not settling too close to him. I don't want him to come spitting at me calling me a warmonger because I am in a war he asked me to join.
     
  20. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    What are you even trying to say here? Blind diplomacy and permanent buildings aren't back of the box features. They're things which either the devs were trying out or didn't get around to fixing - we don't know that these things haven't been on their list to fix for 6 months.

    If they change something major - like eliminating city-states, removing the 1UPT restriction, removing embarkation (and I don't mean adding a transport in addition, which I could totally see happening) or removing social policies - then a post about backtracking will be justified. These changes don't even remotely qualify. They simply don't speak to the central gameplay of Civ V.
     

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