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[GS] The Great Duel of Our Time

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    I was thinking about how people were like "OMG!" when Eleanor was close to Culture victory in the Medieval era but she only had 3 great works in her cities. I think the fact that the map was on "Tiny" size and that Ed and Carl both completely neglected Culture allowed Eleanor the chance to win a CV.

    Plus Ed & Carl were able to stop Eleanor winning fairly easily. I was thinking the AI had been greatly improved but I think the above factors playing a big part in what happened.
     
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  2. slyone14

    slyone14 Warlord

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    For those that care, just checked the stream from today is on twitch ready to view, 4 hours long
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Sure, but it is probably easier than wiping out the CS which was the alternative discussed at the time, perhaps I should not have used the word just. It is possible though, Hungary will not be investing in a single CS but spreading his load, you will be holding your envoys as you know you are against Hungary. The main issue is the inability to move a governor into a CS you are at war with, it is a bit of a pain.
    In the who will you play first thread I did say Hungary first purely because of the levy, it is OP... and marb did not have a GG to give them moar MP/strength... even one chariot can be good enough... that is a mighty fast knight.
     
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  4. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    That was pretty much a foregone conclusion once Carl chose to start building an ancient era wonder.


    I'd hesitate to draw many conclusions from one sample point, particularly given Carl's approach to the early game.

    I'm not going to generally critique Ed and Carl considering (a) they were playing fast, and (b) they had a camera on them. Those aren't conducive conditions to playing well.

    I will, however, speak to the early build decisions, as that's not something that's tied to playing fast, it's more player habit. Carl's initial build order was not the behaviour of someone used to dealing with competent opposition. I'm assuming he's generally won more games than he's lost against the rest of the dev team, and that's led him into treating the opposition (Ed in this case), like they're no more dangerous than the AI.

    If you build an early game wonder, you're going to lose to competent opposition who don't build an early game wonder. It might be fun, and against the AI (who's going to try and build wonders, too) it's not going to matter. But the opportunity cost associated with investing that much precious early game time on getting a wonder instead of getting your empire established is huge. Even if Ed wasn't marching on Carl, Ed would have beaten him in the economic game.

    Basically, my take is that the difference in early game efficiency meant that Carl was too far behind for us to get any sense as to how useful Canada's mid- to late-game bonuses eventually are.
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I asked Carl of he had seen Marbozir's video on Hungary. He said he hadn't but was familiar with the strategy. He just wasn't expecting it.

    Ed said he had watched parts of the video. So I assume that Carl didn't think Ed knew about the levy-rush strategy.
     
  6. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    I like that knowing Hungary's in the game will very much change your decision as to whether to invest or hold on to your envoys.

    Hungary, however, probably more than any other civ, absolutely should not spread their envoys around if they're relying on their City State bonus for conquest. They should be picking a proxy and going all in on controlling that City State. With the right proxy in the right place, that should be enough to defeat any opposition. Once you've won one war and absorbed a neighbour, you're probably no longer dependent on your City State bonus anyway.
     
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  7. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I do wonder how much of that was "scripted". I do have a healthy amount of skepticism for Youtube and Twitch things, including Marbozir's Hungary video (which was edited, and even if it wasn't edited we don't know how many restarts he did to get that start). We don't know if he reloaded to find those those city states first, for example. As for Carl, he said he was surprised that Ed attacked, and didn't think he would, but he had to know after the denouncement. This is why I think this part was scripted in advance (they said they played a practice game). I don't mean the city placement/map and early build order was scripted, but that Ed would Levy a city state and attack; meaning the overall flow of the game might have been discussed before hand. Carl is too advanced a player (including multiplayer) not to see that attack coming after the denouncement. I'm okay with this, he did try to sell it well enough. It makes for a more entertaining stream than had both of them just peacefully built up their empires all game long.

    Edit: This video is in Youtube for those who don't like Twitch. It's in several parts apparently.

     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  8. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Could be, but there's also a high likelihood of "group think". When you play against a closed group, you develop habits based on the characteristics of your regular opponents.

    That's even more of an issue when you're dealing with the developers of a game, who see the game the way they intend it to be, rather than the way it is.

    A good example in this game is that both Ed and Carl slotted the Survey military card. That card's a newbie trap, and has been since the game was released. Yet we're on the second expansion and the dev team sees it as a viable option in a duel game. The game design concept behind the card is great - reward players for early exploration. But the game effect - extra experience for Scouts - is purely for fun, to help you try and get a Scout or two up to the highest experience levels. Even if you have a unique Scout, like the Cree, you're still better off slotting Discipline for the +5 versus Barbarians in the early going. Efficiently dealing with the Barbarians on your borders helps you get your empire established in a way that extra experience for Scouts never can.

    Writers can't edit their own book. That's why there are professional editors. Game designers could benefit by handing their baby over to an outside group for final polish, too.
     
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  9. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Selectively slotting in the double-scout XP bonus can make sense, if you have a hut you're popping right near you and don't have barbs on your doorstep. But especially a tundra civ needs to know that barbarians are coming, and to prepare for it. An extra couple XP for a scout doesn't matter as much when they're dead.
     
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  10. Vandlys

    Vandlys Prince

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    I agree with you up to the very last sentence. The outside group can do way too much harm too. If you'd implemented all of the things mentioned on Civfanatics as "improvements" you'd get a monstrosity of a game.
     
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  11. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Well, my analogy was to professional editors, not passing your manuscript out to people on the street and accepting their scribbles. :)
     
  12. Vandlys

    Vandlys Prince

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    So, someone would do nothing but play the game and give remarks on it? I.e. what Carl and his team do? : P
     
  13. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    So....Vox Populi? :mischief: jk
     
  14. sonicmyst

    sonicmyst Emperor

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    From this I wonder if there is still a test group for this expansion just like the test group during the vanilla.
     
  15. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    QA team is always around, and I guess they have interns as part of the test group? At least it was somewhat implied during the duel stream.

    The problem is:

    1. QA is first and foremost about hunting down bugs. Game balance is part of what they do, but I doubt it is a priority.

    2. A dev team will never do as good of a job testing stuff for balance as hundreds of thousands of players.

    3. As a dev team it’s way too easy for you to shoehorn yourself into a particular way of thinking and playing and to miss on loopholes in your game balance.
     
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  16. sonicmyst

    sonicmyst Emperor

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    Or maybe that role is somehow put into the place of these early reviewers and streamers. But it will be a bit late for fixing if they found something.

    Edit: Also looks like the marketing team is part of the test group as well, since Pete also mentioned he played some games to check on the features.
     
  17. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Surveyors is actually pretty cool on slower speeds.
     
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  18. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    The vibe I was getting is that it is really good for SpecOps, so if you can promote a scout and then upgrade, it's really useful. I've never pulled it off, though, even when I slot Survey (typically, but not always for Germany).
     
  19. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    I don't mind options in the game that are primarily good for edge cases like this. It's just a little misplaced with Survey, I think, which is one of only two initial Military cards.

    The game design decision I agree with: you either start better at fighting Barbarians or get a larger reward from exploring.

    I just think the reward from Survey is too modest. If it gave gold every time a Scout earned exploration XP, or something of that ilk, it would offer a more difficult choice between it and Discipline.
     
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  20. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I'd give a production bonus, and give scouts +1 sight when the card is slotted.
     
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