The Great Negotiating Table

downtown

Crafternoon Delight
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
19,541
Location
Chicago
My friends and fellow citizens, it would appear that there are major divisions and problems with our game that threaten its very existence. Some members have led others away from the game.

I seek to bring ALL members, ALL parties together, so we can negotiate and come to a solution that we can all at least play under. A house divided cannot stand.
 
Civilitas must remain one. End of story.
 
Declaration of the Unity of the Nation of Civilitas

We, the people of Civilitas, do hereby declare that we will not cave to tyrrany. We will not allow ourselves to be expunged from the records; we will not allows the records to be destroyed; we will not allow democracy to be overruled by political posturing.

We solemnly nod our heads in acknowledgment of the contribution of members who have been wrongfully and unjustly removed from the nation without cause, trial, or verdict. We come here to declare in one voice that we will not vanish quietly into the darkness; that the free vote will not be destroyed; and that the participants in a democratic union are not chosen by the unelected few.

We call upon you, patriotic citizens of Civilitas, not to be used as the tools of oppression; do not allow yourselves to be used as a political weapon; return to the true Civilitas and resolve this conflict the only way reasonable: with your votes.

We come here not just to call upon all citizens to return to the home that is their birthright, but to call upon all parties to return to the negotiating table. We choose today not to perpetuate a conflict, but to perpetuate Civilitas.
 
Agreed, downtown. Agreed, agreed, agreed.

This will be your darkest hour. Civilitas has almost collapsed right from the onset. But this is normal. Countries have oft struggled as they have been forged.

Lead us in these dark times!
 
Also, this thread will be very highly moderated. There will be no flaming, no threadjacking. This must be public, so there can be transparency, and so every MP, not just a few elites, can have their say.
 
I guess I am called for, and I will await cautiously what is proposed, and first out, I wonder how voting privileges will be distributed, if something here is to be voted on.
 
This shouldn't be something that should be "voted on" - this is something that should be decided on by consensus, really.
 
POINTS OF DISCUSSION

Abstract vs. Scaled Time (Abstract was never defined as a game rule)
Swingdoor Votes and Chat Revolutions (Active players need some assurances)
Event pacing (Smallest common denominator or active/quick players get their share)?
Intersite game or CFC game alone ?
One Forum or several forums?
Flaming and threadjacking (threadjacking of voting threads in particular)?
Active vs. Casual Players ?
Civ4 Civil War Endgame or perpetual forum game ?
Lazy Ancient GMs with Immunity ?
Gameworld Detail (Tabloid or Realist?)
Political Diversity and Dark Civilitas (Politically correct lower left quadrant or more diversity)
forum discipline ?
Metagame Coups or reliable gameworld rules?
Restrictions and rules for MPs?
Realist size of Parliament and placeholder dummy MPs?

This is just a few points, to see if consensus is possible.
 
Here is my propsal. If I understand correctly, the main problems are

a) GMs. Provo and Perf have become lightning rods for controversy.

b) Voting. Who gets to vote.

Another issue that has apparently come up is hosting (location of the game).

Clearly, our current GM situation, regardless of whatever vote that happened, is not going to work. For this game to work, we need GMs that just about everybody can live with. It is clear then, to me, that NEITHER Perfection, or Provo, can serve as a GM.

One simply cannot dedicate the time needed, and the other is way too pushy.

If others think that I am capable of such a job, I am willing to be a GM. I also think, should they be interested, that Splime or Lockesdonkey would do a fine job. I am also okay with recruiting a totally new person from OT.

The other issue is voting. Some parties are concerned about "ballot-stuffing". Whether or not that actually happened, it is a concern that ought to be addressed. I propose a 48 hour "cooling off time" after registration. One cannot vote until 48 hours after he signed up. This should make ballot stuffing less likely.

I am not adverse to the idea of making members of Parliament have an activity requirement (must vote X % of bills to retain seat), but I dont know what specifics to use...I think it should be a fairly low threshold, like, 20% tops. I'm the Prime Minister, and I didnt even vote on every bill.

I am adamant, however, that this game continue here at CFC. Furthermore, since I assume you're in charge of the other game Provo, that you tell some of the other posters to come here and make their thoughts known. This is not a conversation between a few CSPers and you. I want to hear everybody.
 
I am already committed to the other site, and they look much forward to the game we set up.

They know what they got, and it fits their pace of events. The other forum got separate forums for each party, it has a much better organization than this one, clear and defined rules that handles new MPs (Each party has a pool of dummy MPs, but only active MPs are eligible for elections). I can see that the ambition level of this forum is a bit different, so is the view on realism

I recon that there will be constitutional amendments to Article 1., and this time all that voted no, would vote yes for these. (In our game, one registers for both at once, and the Admin must approve applicants).

Also, if I am not needed here, I think I will go on with the other site.

For "ballot-stuffing", our rule is that new MPs cannot vote on votes initiated before they joined. This effectively eliminates rigged swing votes. "Less likely" is not good enough, it should be impossible.
 
Abstract vs. Scaled Time (Abstract was never defined as a game rule)
Swingdoor Votes and Chat Revolutions (Active players need some assurances)
Event pacing (Smallest common denominator or active/quick players get their share)?
Intersite game or CFC game alone ?
One Forum or several forums?
Flaming and threadjacking (threadjacking of voting threads in particular)?
Active vs. Casual Players ?
Civ4 Civil War Endgame or perpetual forum game ?
Lazy Ancient GMs with Immunity Yes or No ?
Gameworld Detail (Tabloid or Realist?)
Political Diversity and Dark Civilitas (Politically correct lower left quadrant or more diversity)
forum discipline ?
Metagame Coups or reliable gameworld rules?
Restrictions and rules for MPs?
Realist size of Parliament and placeholder dummy MPs?

There are certain things that are more or less non-negotiable. I also think Downtown is not as unifying GM as he thinks, and is more or less in the same group as me and Perfection, even though he is more low key and cautious. I am also certain I can handle GMing on the other site, but not this site. For me to be more involved in this, I would go for an intersite game where provinces may be run from other sites.

Basically, I see this thread as an attempt for me to end my work, end the project and funnel all players I meet here, to a very uncertain set of game rules and a very shifty constellation of MPs.
 
Splime and Lockesdonkey would make great GMs

Also, Abgar has always at the very least lurked. Is there any reason for him not to continue GMing?

As well, I like intersite as the other sites will (and do) have more conservatives and diversity.
 
Splime and Lockesdonkey would make great GMs

Also, Abgar has always at the very least lurked. Is there any reason for him not to continue GMing?

As well, I like intersite as the other sites will (and do) have more conservatives and diversity.

I dont personally have any issues with adgar either.

The diversity issue, I think, can be solved by fixing what ails the game over here. CFC is a huge place, and once they see that the game is humming along, they'll come. We had a lot of diversity when the game first started, but petty bickerings, and election defeats scared some of them away.
 
We need fixed vote caps, so the Conservatives or other parties are not are thrown out of power due to sudden recruitment of voters. The reason CSP and PLP has dominated, is party to this. For an intersite game, I am willing to GM another site, where I am not as controversial as here. This is my only contribution here. Politically, I am not wanted as a player, and I am not wanted as GM either, but I am part of the solution for an intersite game.

I suggest I run the Provincial games of Cook Island and Nurlsk, for example.
 
Why not just do that here? I dont have a problem if you GM a provincial game, and I bet we can get subforums for that.
 
Yes, that was the other reason I like that site. We get sub-forums quite easily, each party has one (to prevent another forum being required), and many topics have one.

That is unlikely here, but if we could get 2 or 4 provincial GMs, and 2 national Gms, it would work well, and could stay on this site (maybe move the hordists here as well?)
 
I have talked with the other site, and I will stay there. I also think Lockesdonkey or Splime should GM this site. Bill3000 got the history somewhere, and I think you got all you need to play a game, but determining the GM. We already tweaked the history to fit our present game population, city sizes changed and we revamped the game engine to fit our goals and
so on. I also think that the gamerules we have would be considered "dictatorial" here.

We posted a link to this discussion under the pledge you gave Methos, so they can visit this thread if they want. They are free to leave our game for this of course, we are not forcing anyone.

Our game will be hard to get into, as we have some standards, and easy to get out of, if someone break those standards. What we do not want, is a game that it is too easy to get into, and hard to leave as you are drawn into conflicts you struggle to get out of.
 
Since Perfection did not help out with fixing up the Factbook he now is firmly in control of, I offer some understanding and clemency and provide the national statistics. I PMed him these, as I said previously, and he has failed to put this up in the factbook, so I am posting it here.

FACTS ON CIVILITAS


Spoiler :
Capital: Isthmus City
Add longitudes and latitudes after poll

Official languages None or English

Government Parliamentary

President -
Prime Minister-
Sec. of Education and Science-
Sec. of Defense -
Sec. of The Interior -
Attorney General (justice)-
Sec. of the Environment -
Sec of Finance and Business-
Foreign Minister-

SUPREME COURT JUSTICES
Methos CSP


Establishment
- Constitution 29 July, 2007
- Independence from Dominion with United Kingdom
declared XX Aug., 2007

Area
- Total 103 384 Square kilometers.

- Water (%) 1,8 %

Population

- 2006 estimate 19.17 million people
- Density 19.17 million divided by 103 384 Square kilometers = 185.92 just a little below Italy in density.


GDP (PPP) 2006 estimate
- Total GDP of $28,454. X 19.17 millions
- Per capita GDP of $28,454.
GDP (nominal) 2006 estimate
- Total GDP of 545 463 million USD (just between the economic sizes of Belgium and Netherlands) #17 biggest national economy in the world.
- Per capita GDP of $28,454.
Gini? (2000) To be polled in a new poll (GINI POLL)
HDI (2004) To be decided by GMs later
Currency Civilitas Dollar
Time zone +12
- Summer (DST) +12 ?
Internet TLD .CI
Calling code +696


Right side driving
 
Here's my proposal:

We do stuff here. Head Serf and Abgar are in charge of rules, Provo is in charge of details, and you guys can figure out who does issues.

I don't need to be GM if I'm too polarizing. My only beef is that Provo is ill-equipped to handle global game stuff because of his insane attention to detail and his tendancy to power grab.
 
Yes, I like this idea. Provo is very good with details; everybody loved his factbook.
 
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