The Great Tank vs. Spearman Challenge

[Shaitan]

I have heard so much about the flaws in the combat system with the particular emphasis of spearmen killing tanks. While this is certainly possible in the vagaries of randomness, it must be an incredibly remote occurence. Some of the more vocal posters claim that it happens "all the time" or "every game". Here's the challenge:

Can anybody post two save games of the turn where their tank loses to a spearman?
This could be separate games, different turns of the same game, whatever. As the pseudo-random number seed is saved with the game we will be able to reproduce the famed battle at will. Two save games shouldn't be difficult to produce if it happens "all the time every game".

I doubt that anybody will be able to do this and I'm prepared to eat my hat if anybody can.

 

[eyrei]

This should be interesting. I am guessing that all of these saved games have somehow disappeared from peoples hard-drives. I do hope you realize that this is going to cause yet another thread about the AI cheating through combat results.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I rarely have this happen, but I have a question. Any rules for this? Like can it be a regular tank against an elite spearman fortified in a metropolis that is built on a hill, or is fortified in a fortress on a mountain?

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by eyrei
This should be interesting. I am guessing that all of these saved games have somehow disappeared from peoples hard-drives. I do hope you realize that this is going to cause yet another thread about the AI cheating through combat results.

I know, I know

I'm just so bloody sick and tired of the constant harping about the subject and reading the inevitable troll by Zouave and Troyens that gets put into every thread somewhere that I had this irresistable urge to fight back. Do you think they'll sense the sarcasm of this thread? Do you think Zouave and Troyens are actually the same person? Maybe evil twins separated at birth?

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
I rarely have this happen, but I have a question. Any rules for this? Like can it be a regular tank against an elite spearman fortified in a metropolis that is built on a hill, or is fortified in a fortress on a mountain?

Sure! Whatever works, as long as it's spearman winning against tank.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Shaitan


I know, I know

I'm just so bloody sick and tired of the constant harping about the subject and reading the inevitable troll by Zouave and Troyens that gets put into every thread somewhere that I had this irresistable urge to fight back. Do you think they'll sense the sarcasm of this thread? Do you think Zouave and Troyens are actually the same person? Maybe evil twins separated at birth?

They(or he) will probably spend the next year fortifying elite spearmen in size 13+ cities as the AI comes at them with tanks. I sometimes feel the need to fight back too. Do you think they(he) are actually paid to come to this forum and trash the game like someone theorized?

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by eyrei
They(or he) will probably spend the next year fortifying elite spearmen in size 13+ cities as the AI comes at them with tanks.

Ah, but that wouldn't work. Remember the challenge is the player tank being destroyed by the AI spearman. Player spearman killing an AI tank can't happen.

Originally posted by eyrei
Do you think they(he) are actually paid to come to this forum and trash the game like someone theorized?

That's an interesting supposition. "Firaxian Foes Feed Fuel to the Fire on Fan Forum". (groan)

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Shaitan

Ah, but that wouldn't work. Remember the challenge is the player tank being destroyed by the AI spearman. Player spearman killing an AI tank can't happen.

Maybe they will play on chieftan level for awhile. I have never had my tanks even encounter a spearman on monarch and higher. And your right, the AI simply would not allow the player spearman to win.

 

[loki]

Originally posted by Shaitan
I'm just so bloody sick and tired of the constant harping about the subject and reading the inevitable troll by Zouave and Troyens that gets put into every thread somewhere that I had this irresistable urge to fight back. Do you think they'll sense the sarcasm of this thread? Do you think Zouave and Troyens are actually the same person? Maybe evil twins separated at birth?

I find them funny.
Probably the same person. Plus, you can not deny him skill and inventive writing.

loki

 

[Cerryl]

Originally posted by eyrei


Maybe they will play on chieftan level for awhile. I have never had my tanks even encounter a spearman on monarch and higher. And your right, the AI simply would not allow the player spearman to win.

Exactly, I've been saying that for weeks!

I like staying evenly matched and rely on tactics and some good luck.

It's even better, being down in the tech race and catching up.

 

[DarkwingGT]

I've never had the Spearman defeat Modern Armor thing, but I've had Pikemen do it. And I must say, while I'm not saying Civ3 is horrible, I do have issues with the combat as well. I'm not defending Zoauve or Troyens, but you must admit (this goes to Zachriel and Eyrei) that you two defend Firaxis like they can't make mistakes. There are issues, one is my save game that can't be beat (literally, I posted about it but no one responded). I still have that one, I can even post it.

So before you start trashing people, please be aware that a lot of you do come off as "Firaxis bootlickers".

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by DarkwingGT
I've never had the Spearman defeat Modern Armor thing, but I've had Pikemen do it. And I must say, while I'm not saying Civ3 is horrible, I do have issues with the combat as well. I'm not defending Zoauve or Troyens, but you must admit (this goes to Zachriel and Eyrei) that you two defend Firaxis like they can't make mistakes. There are issues, one is my save game that can't be beat (literally, I posted about it but no one responded). I still have that one, I can even post it.

So before you start trashing people, please be aware that a lot of you do come off as "Firaxis bootlickers".

Alright. Point taken. For the record, I do not think the game is perfect. I think bombers should be able to sink ships; I think armies should retain special abilities if they are made up of one kind of unit; I think large garrisons present in cities that defect should not be completely eliminated. I do, however, enjoy the game immensely, and am very happy that Firaxis saw it as a worthy endeavor. Mainly, I get very irritated at the same people posting the same gripes over and over. I have mentioned most of my problems with the game once or twice, and do not feel the need to harp on them. I would much rather figure out ways to deal with these 'problems' and have constructive conversations about tactics and strategy. Many times, useful and informative threads are hijacked by somebody who wishes only to whine about how the game isn't exactly like they would have made it. It may appear that I am a bootlicker, since I do not complain very often, but what good does it do to over-analyze the problem at the expense of a solution.

 

[DarkwingGT]

Yeah, I agree with you. I enjoy the game immensely too (despite all the frustration it gives me).

I think the biggest problem is that frustrated people have no place to vent. Whether or not it's a legitimate problem, if anyone even begins to show irritation, then someone complains that they're "whining" or "trolling" or whatever. We're all people and some of us need to vent every now and again. I for instance have numerous friends I could talk about Civ3's problems with, but none of them have even played the game. So that's no help. And on-line no one seems to acknowledge that some people have problems with the game.

So, to explain, no, there is to little time, let me sum up. I feel if people put a seperate forum up for people to complain in, the regular forums would be more civilized and free of flames.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by DarkwingGT

So, to explain, no, there is to little time, let me sum up. I feel if people put a seperate forum up for people to complain in, the regular forums would be more civilized and free of flames.

I'm not sure the moderators would be up for this. What a hellish job that would be. Moderating a forum designed to house flame wars. Anyway, peace.

 

[Magnus]

Apparently when Firaxis was testing the game, a lot of the playtesters were complaining how 'unfair' the combat results were, even though the balance was even - that the AI civ and the PC civ had equally weighted troops. So Firaxis went in and gave the PC civ an advantage in 1-1 combat, and the playtesters found the new system to be 'fair'.

Goes to show you, a lot of people like to have things handed to them. I am glad Firaxis didn't listen to those people and made the game TRULY fair.

The whiners are all people who are challenged by the game and think it is unfair that they cannot beat it. God forbid they should actually have to think and put an effort into winning the game.

If it was an easy game I would probably have stopped playing it after a few goes, but its challenging nature is such that I just can't wait to get back into it.

Yes, there are admittedly a few bugs in the game, and I do believe it was rushed to market, but I still would rather have the wonderfully flawed game I have in my hands now, than be without it, hoping for a 'perfected' release in the Spring. No thanks, I will just have fun while waiting for the next patch.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by DarkwingGT
I've never had the Spearman defeat Modern Armor thing, but I've had Pikemen do it. And I must say, while I'm not saying Civ3 is horrible, I do have issues with the combat as well. I'm not defending Zoauve or Troyens, but you must admit (this goes to Zachriel and Eyrei) that you two defend Firaxis like they can't make mistakes. There are issues, one is my save game that can't be beat (literally, I posted about it but no one responded). I still have that one, I can even post it.

So before you start trashing people, please be aware that a lot of you do come off as "Firaxis bootlickers".

Whoa, Nelly! Firaxis bootlickers?

What brought that tirade about?
What previously posted save game?

 

[Zachriel]

For the record,

When I post my historical tidbits, I do so because this is what my mind sees when I play Civ3. I experience Antony's betrayal when my city flips to the Egyptians. I see Wellington subduing India because he gets his troops to where they need to be at the time they need to be there. I watch as John Paul "I have not yet begun to fight" Jones use a merchant vessal to capture a British frigate.

I find that history makes the game more enjoyable. Plus it has the added benefit of helping to understand the game mechanics by analogy. Remember the gamemakers know and love history, too (though they are not historians). And they look at the same history and try to create a fun game to stimulate the mind and your imagination.

I have suggested that subs should be able to pick out transports from a naval stack. But suggesting this does not mean the makers are stupid, or ignorant or negligent. Changes to the game will occur in the near future. Be patient. Rome was not build in a day (especially at 50 years per turn).

There are thousands of possible changes that could be made, and it is fun to imagine new units, new landscapes and new civilizations. I just don't think anyone should make themselves, or their neighbors, miserable over a $50 game.

 

[simwiz2]

I have seen 2 spearmen beat 2 tanks IN THE SAME TURN, it was in one of my friends games (while i watched in the horror that I had already ordered civ3), and he also said that in the last turn he had lost a tank to a spearman. I dont think he still has the savegames, but I can ask if u dont believe me This was way back in October so if I cant get savegames dont just think im lying or something.

but savegame or not, I am not saying "all the time" or "every game", I am just saying what I saw, and heard, which was at least 3 of these instances in 2 turns.

 

[Octavian X]

The ridding of firepower was one of the things that I disagreed most with in this game(maybe second to the loss of the cheat menu). I haven't had a spearman/tank situation once, but I had a tank on a mountain retreat from an attacking longbowman. What is the probability that middle age arrows penetrate steel?

Oh well, part of the game is its unpredicibility

 

[Rustus Maximus]

Maybe the longbowmen weren't using arrows...maybe they hurling cows