The Great Wall...Underrated, overpowered and just plain nifty

[CivCorpse]

Was goofing around the other night and played a marathon huge low sea level with raging barbs on emp. Chopped out the GW as soon as possible then pretty much did whatever I wanted. The barbs butchered the AI. Vic was down to 2 archers in London at size one when i decided to end her pain. The oracle didn't get built until nearly 200ad. Only toko was expanding, probably do to his traits. Perciles had 7 cities by 600ad but very few improvements. He was constantly pilliaged. I actually got bored with the game.
This probably won't work on smaller maps at faster speeds because of the reduced barb spawning chances. I was using Louis who is Ind but does not start with mining so it was a close call getting it up before the barbs swarmed in. I imagine Qin or Bizmark would have an easier time since they start with mining.

 

[nanomage]

well, that's a map and set of rules that make GW such a power in your game. If you played high sea archipelago the wall would be of nearly no use but, say, GLH would be overpowered instead.
However, no doubt your game was a lot of fun (at least watching the barbs to shred that nasty woman

 

[Abegweit]

Huge marathon low sea? C'mon dood. Let's play Civ instead. In a normal game the GW is pretty useless.

 

[vicawoo]

Great wall is to something as the pyramids are to stupid people.

 

[Tephros]

Huge marathon low sea? C'mon dood. Let's play Civ instead. In a normal game the GW is pretty useless.

That's like saying you should never play on an archipelago map because of the great lighthouse. But yeah, if you only play on archipelago maps as carthage with the GLH perhaps you should learn to play another way. Same for these settings.

On immortal difficulty building the great wall is a more reliable way to avoid getting owned by barbarians than building a second city to get copper. On deity I'd imagine it would be less useful because there's no unclaimed land for barbarians to spawn, and on lower difficulties you have more time to get copper before barbs rush you.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Great wall is to something as the pyramids are to stupid people.

Espionage, according to TTF.

Anyway, it's map dependent as everyone says. I'd stop way short of "close to useless on standard maps". Obsolete gets it in just about every game he plays, often his first wonder.

Basically, the more room you have to expand peacefully, the greater the impact of this wonder. There's a number of reasons this is true:

1. You see more barbs with more room (less AI fogbusting), and the hammer costs to contain them may fall well short of the hammer costs of just building the wall, especially on high difficulties.

2. An early great person of any kind gives you a lift. The spy is kind of unique though. I usually settle them (the 3 beakers is nice, but for more total EP mostly). The EP overwhelm granted by focusing on one AI can provide an interesting advantage. In climb the ladder V I used it to steal things like currency, feudalism, guilds, chemistry, military science, biology, and so on. Very rarely did I run the slider for a large part of the game. In other words, if your tech hurts from overexpanding, stealing certain techs can put you back VERY quickly.

3. Building on #2, SY in a bureaucracy capitol (having now tried it) can be pretty overwhelming. The infrastructure investment is far less than oxford/academy/library/university, but the interesting thing is that depending on what cost reductions you get, the conversion isn't that far away, especially if you overexpanded (steal engineering and build a castle).

4. AIs attach some power rating to it. More importantly, it's still nice to butcher AI stacks in your territory THEN invade them. It's not a reason to build the wall unto itself but it helps.

2, 3, and 4 are just icing though normally (unless you want full-blown EE and not just a faster tech-catch up or less tradeaways if you have a lead). It's ultimately a function of room to expand and the amount of hammers it saves/costs.

 

[Fei Kelei]

The Great Wall can still be quite useful even if you don't have a barb problem, because it allows you to get a great spy way earlier than anything else that can generate EPs. Just settle him and do nothing and you'll probably see everyone's research for most of the game, or direct those EPs at a close neighbor and steal techs at will after you get Alphabet. If you get a second great spy for Scotland Yard you'll have an even more ridiculous advantage.

It's a great use of early hammers if you have a decent comfort zone and don't need to REX quite so aggressively.

 

[Tephros]

Espionage, according to TTF.

Anyway, it's map dependent as everyone says. I'd stop way short of "close to useless on standard maps". Obsolete gets it in just about every game he plays, often his first wonder.

Basically, the more room you have to expand peacefully, the greater the impact of this wonder. There's a number of reasons this is true:

1. You see more barbs with more room (less AI fogbusting), and the hammer costs to contain them may fall well short of the hammer costs of just building the wall, especially on high difficulties.

2. An early great person of any kind gives you a lift. The spy is kind of unique though. I usually settle them (the 3 beakers is nice, but for more total EP mostly). The EP overwhelm granted by focusing on one AI can provide an interesting advantage. In climb the ladder V I used it to steal things like currency, feudalism, guilds, chemistry, military science, biology, and so on. Very rarely did I run the slider for a large part of the game. In other words, if your tech hurts from overexpanding, stealing certain techs can put you back VERY quickly.

3. Building on #2, SY in a bureaucracy capitol (having now tried it) can be pretty overwhelming. The infrastructure investment is far less than oxford/academy/library/university, but the interesting thing is that depending on what cost reductions you get, the conversion isn't that far away, especially if you overexpanded (steal engineering and build a castle).

4. AIs attach some power rating to it. More importantly, it's still nice to butcher AI stacks in your territory THEN invade them. It's not a reason to build the wall unto itself but it helps.

2, 3, and 4 are just icing though normally (unless you want full-blown EE and not just a faster tech-catch up or less tradeaways if you have a lead). It's ultimately a function of room to expand and the amount of hammers it saves/costs.

Agreed. Good post.

The GW never gets obsoleted though. The AI does occassionally attack your cities, especially recently captured ones. So if you're imperialistic, you'll get 4X GG yield when this happens, else 2X. No matter how much you're geared towards the idea that a good offense is the best defense, it'll net quite a few extra GG points in a game where you're bloodthirsty.

I'd say the GG is the best early wonder if you know how to use espionage, are going for domination, or have a lot of space around you, but it's not quite overpowered unless you turn raging barbarians on. I'd say it's good on any map except sometimes archipelago.

 

[Abegweit]

On immortal difficulty building the great wall is a more reliable way to avoid getting owned by barbarians than building a second city to get copper.

Well duh! Of course it is. Cannons would be even better. And?

 

[Joshua368]

Great Wall + Stonehenge = some fun REXing sessions

 

[Tephros]

Well duh! Of course it is. Cannons would be even better. And?

I have no idea what your point is. I didn't know that it would be easier to chop the great wall than hook up copper when I first started playing immortal. I figured the AI would usually beat me to it or I could never afford to wait that long for a 2nd city. Both were false ideas that were proven wrong through experience, not simple reasoning. Civ is not a simple game.

 

[Joshua368]

I have no idea what your point is. I didn't know that it would be easier to chop the great wall than hook up copper when I first started playing immortal. I figured the AI would usually beat me to it or I could never afford to wait that long for a 2nd city. Both were false ideas that were proven wrong through experience, not simple reasoning. Civ is not a simple game.

He lost me there too, I guess he wants you to make a quick Steel beeline to deal with the barb arhcers?

Certainly true that by the time you hook up bronze outside of your capital in immortal, it's too late and you better have either built the Great Wall or learned Archery! I tried to get the Great Wall once but it fell in 3300 BC, whoops.

 

[Abegweit]

He lost me there too, I guess he wants you to make a quick Steel beeline to deal with the barb arhcers?

Obviously the Steel thing was facetious but the point is quite simple and valid. Of course, the Wall is better at dealing with barb archers than a copper city. Well duh! I just spam a few warriors. The warriors don't work as well as the Wall - or even the archers - and none is as good as Steel. With my approach, occasionally I get pillaged but that's life. Rebuild and move on.

It's all about opportunity costs.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I love the EE opportunities here, plan to try it out.

I've normally thought of the fog as a training ground to get my axes to 10 XP, but this may outpace its advantages.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I love the EE opportunities here, plan to try it out.

I've normally thought of the fog as a training ground to get my axes to 10 XP, but this may outpace its advantages.

You probably still want to throw a guy out there to unlock HE, or possibly attain that taking a barb city. HE is a major, major hammers boost that early on.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Right after I made my post I realized that just because I have GW doesn't mean I can't still send axes out into the fog for their 10 XP training. I have a 101 temperature right now, probably should not be posting. Delerium...

 

[shyuhe]

On the higher levels, you will actually want to use fog busters more than the GW. Otherwise you run into barb cities spawning at very inconvenient locations and preventing you from settling the good spots for thousands of years.

Obviously I'm talking standard setting maps here, not marathon low sea raging

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Great wall is to something as the pyramids are to stupid people.

Astoundingly intelligent analogy.

Except that I can easily win a domination victory before anyone gets Democracy on a Standard Continents map thanks to a good SE and Pyramids.

Pyramids are about as stupid as Neils Bohr

 

[madscientist]

WOW, alot of GW bashing here. Being an emperor/marathon player, I feel it's one of the BEST wonders in teh game. Here are my numerous reasons

1) It is the only anceint wonder that does NOT go obsolete. Even teh mighty pyramids are irrelevant post-Fascism.

2) Protection from barbarians at the beginning where fast expansion is required is NOT insigificent. It allow you to delay archery for protection (depending on neighbors of course) until you have horses and copper secured.

3) It's fairly cheap, and rarely can I NOT chop it out when I want.

4) The GSpy points are a big bonus early on as you have to wait until CoL to start producing them. There may be arguments over which GP is the best to get first, I rank the GSpy the best, perhaps second only to a Prophget if you have an early holy city.

5) Faster GGs with defensive wars. Takes a little work sometimes to get the AI into your lands during a war, but if you have leaders like Monty/Shaka/Khan you know a good-sized stack is coming. With a properly defended city, you can get a very early GG during the first war.

6) It stacks well with alot of traits: Protective allows superb defense for GG points, Imperialistic and defensive wars get's 4 times XP (it doubles the XP after the initial double from Imperisistic), Philosphical (Faster GSpy), Industrious (fewer wasted beakers).

There is a downside

A) In Isolation the early GSpy is very weak and a waste.

B) Smaller landmasses it's talents are wasted as you can fog bust.

C) Being surrounded by peaceful leaders you want to destroy also wastes it's uses.

 

[fjordan]

Off topic: Huge, marathon, low sea level??? I finally understand your nickname. I can already see the headlines: "Man bores himself to death while playing computer game".