The Great War

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Sarevok, Jan 25, 2004.

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What do you think of this scenario?

  1. Its Great! one of the best out there!

    261 vote(s)
    54.6%
  2. Its a good scenario

    119 vote(s)
    24.9%
  3. Its ok

    40 vote(s)
    8.4%
  4. I dont like it

    58 vote(s)
    12.1%
  1. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    There is one sad glitch with AI bombardment in this scenario, unless it's common for Civ3 engine in general. Namely, AI ship bombardment does not seem to decrees human player's LAND unit's hit point's. I have seen entire Grand Fleet bombarding virtually indestructible minefield off the Danish coast and one minefield eventually lost two hit points. Than the same huge British fleet bombards Ypres, the message says "bombardment successful" maybe 20 times but at my turn not a single damage is spotted. I don't think my LAND units heal right away, and I never see them loosing hit points during the bombardments anyway...
     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I still have a game of TGW going, which is now entering it's third year... (Due to other commitments (GOTM, PBEM, real life...) I only get another playing session in like once every few weeks.) But it's a fascinating scenario and that's why I'm still playing it and hoping to finish...

    BTW: I'm not Armenian, nor do I understand the language, but I assume you guys are talking about Petrosjan?!

    Lanzelot
     
  3. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Do you have barracks in Ypres? That would explain it. I think their bombardment belongs to the "previous" turn, and when it comes to your turn, your units have all healed again due to the barracks.
     
  4. Moff Jerjerrod

    Moff Jerjerrod Deity

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    When I first played this scenario I noticed that too. At first I thought the same thing, that something was wrong. But check the defense value of the minefield. It is extremly high compared to the bombardment value of the ships hitting it. This is working as designed. It took me many many turns of constant bombardment to finally reduce one to one hit point upon which I was ready to attack it normally.


    Kani dari hos em yev meg hayumeh hed chem khosadz hos!! Shad oorakhem vor tzezi k'dah.


    Excellent! You know Petrosian. Actually we're just commenting on how nice it is to actually meet another Armenian, especially on a website about gaming. lol
     
  5. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Re bombardment glitch

    Moff, I did not explain myself clear enough, eghbayr :) It is ok for minefield to eventually loose a hit point. I was contrasting this to the lack of damage I was observing at Ypres for my land troops. This last one is a potential problem I was talking about.

    Lanzelot, I was thinking about barracks too... Perhaps I am missing something, but I just don't see my troops ever going yellow DURING the bombardment, dispute all the "success" messages for the AI. We all know that AI in Civ3 is not an excellent one, so to see it's additionally handicapped by the bombardment glitch is not fun at all... I will watch bombardments more closely though, maybe I am missing something...

    On the side note, did anyone witnessed any effective artillery action on the AI side? I am getting more and more frustrated by an inability of the AI to mount an effective offence....
     
  6. Moff Jerjerrod

    Moff Jerjerrod Deity

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    Ah I see, I did misunderstand you.

    If you or another AI Civ is being bombarded by a fleet and no damage is noticed to the land units inside the city, i.e. you spy on the ai city or you simply check your units in your city, then that could mean that air or sea units were present in the city. Usually when a fleet bombards a city it's attack goes after enemy air units first, then ships, then finally the ground units.

    In other words until all the air units are taken out subsequent bombardment will not affect the naval units inside the city. If there are no naval units inside the city then the land units would have been attacked provided the air and naval units were all destroyed first. I'm assuming lethal sea bombardment.

    You will not see a death animation for the air units and IIRC you won't for any lethally bombed ships either. This is usually the case for a large scenario with many cities. The software can't process all the calculations it does and display a lot of the results of ai bombardments. It seems the only time you do indeed see the results of combat when it is the ai's turn is only for when an enemy unit tries to move into the same space as one of your units.
     
  7. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Yeah, you were right! My entire High Seas Fleet was gathered in Ypres to harass London :)

    Another observation... It was noted many times that AI sometimes wastes tons of units for little gains, just like in real WW1. Not so in this scenario. I am playing under the most aggressive AI setting and still 20 units will not attack my entrenched units as long as I keep more than 1 unit per tile. What do the other players see in their games?

    @Moff, Do you know how to convert v1.6 to multiplayer version? I would love to challenge you for PBEM :)
     
  8. Moff Jerjerrod

    Moff Jerjerrod Deity

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    I've noticed the same thing somewhat. I am playing at, and I can't remember the correct difficulty name right now, the medium difficulty setting. I've got the entire front line manned with a continuous line of units. In some cases I have only 2 units protecting a section of the front. I have seen the ai try to breakthrough my thinly defended areas before but not very often. Most of the time they waste their stacks of doom assaulting one of my heavily fortified cities at the front lines.

    I do indeed know how to mod the scenario and I can setup a multiplayer PBEM for us for sure!! Let me see what I can do this evening when I get home from work.

    I assume you want two sides? One for the Central Powers and one for the Entente? I can have the neutral countries and the minors like Serbia be controlled by the ai.
     
  9. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Yes, that will work just right! Micromanaging Russia is a nightmare :crazyeye:, but she got Yerevan :mischief: We could open a special thread in Stories with monthly (4 turns) updates on situation on fronts :lol:
     
  10. Moff Jerjerrod

    Moff Jerjerrod Deity

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    I know what you mean about the Micromanaging. LOL But you do have a valid point! Fight to protect our home!

    So here are the exact details of what I'm thinking:
    • Triple Entente
    • UK
    • France
    • Russia
    • Italy
    • Central Powers
    • Germany
    • Austria-Hungary
    • Turkey
    • Bulgaria
    • Neutrals (Ai controlled)
    • Spain
    • Switzerland
    • Sweden
    • Norway
    • Netherlands
    • Denmark
    • Minor Allies (Ai controlled)
    • Rumania
    • Serbia
    • Greece
    • Albania
    • Belgium
    • Portugal
    • Montenegro and the any other minor Balkan countries I missed

    I figure that having all of the neutrals united into one faction will discourage either of us from attacking them unless either of us feels they have the additional manpower to take them on.

    Letting the Ai control the minor allied nations all united into one faction takes some of the burden off of the allied player micromanagement.

    I never played this scenario until completion so I'm not sure how the USA is handled but obviously if they are in this game I'll include them in the allied powers.

    So the Civ Alliances will be four: Entente, Central Powers, Neutrals, Allied Minors. The Entente is allied with the Allied minors and they are both at war with the Central Powers. The Neutrals are not allied with anyone nor are they at war with anyone.

    This might be a tad bit inaccurate having all of the mentioned nations at war at the scenario start but it will stop the unhistoric events of having say Italy join the Central Powers.

    It would be fun indeed to share our story of how the war progresses in monthly increments!
     
  11. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    I completely agree with the breakdown of the nations. America is not a separate civ in this scenario. When Allies research the corresponding tech Germans stop getting Ruhr factory reinforcements and allies get new unit -- American infantry. They can also build a Wonder which will produce even more of those.

    I propose to lean toward two principles.

    First -- to keep things unchanged from the original scenario -- only adapt it for multi player, just like you have proposed. So it is OK for Italy to start with war. The only regrettable thing is that Bulgaria never went on war with Russia directly and there is no way to reflect it in the system of locked alliances. But that is a minor thing.

    Second -- lets adopt some house rules that will encourage as much historical development as possible. We will both agree not to attack neutrals (and maybe even no Russian-Bulgarian engagement). If neutrals attack any of us -- that's fine. Romania and Portugal contributed to war later, so we may adopt some special rules for them. With the other neutral countries it is the best to keep things historical and sign no RoP agreements with neutrals (trade is OK). By the way, according to the international law any ship could spend no more than 24 hours in neutral waters, or you need to intern her. Troops get interned immediately. We could both agree to respect neutrality of the land fully and of the sea in accordance with the game mechanics (warning and being kicked out automatically) .

    I hope this will help to inspire Ricoteh to come up with a v1.7 (better Pedia is badly needed, for example) ;).

    PM me so that you could email me the BIQ file after you done with it. Yeah, and last thing -- lets make mountains impassable for all the units, to simulate Austro-Italian campaign more realistically.
     
  12. Moff Jerjerrod

    Moff Jerjerrod Deity

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    On the First Principle:

    I'll see if there is a way to make Bulgaria a minor Central Powers nation controlled by the AI. Alternatively see Second Principle below.

    Second Principle:

    I agree with all the house rules you propose. No attacking neutrals unless they attack first, no RoP with Neutrals although trade is ok. No violations of neutral territory both land and sea. If you must pass through neutral waters you must not end your turn in a neutral control sea/coast tile. No land unit travel through neutral territory at all. I agree to make the mountains impassable and think it will simulate the Carpathian and Alps campaigns more historically. Finally with respect to Bulgaria, if it is not easy to make them ai controlled and allied with the Central Powers then the human player cannot use Bulgarian units on the Russian front. Only against Turkey, Greece, Serbia, and the other Balkan nations.

    One thing I need to look into is to make sure there are no techs that are limited to any one country. If that is the case I'll need to add some kind of unique resource to prevent countries like Germany for example manufacturing Austro-Hungarian units in Germany itself. This conversion might take me a few days to put together. There are a lot of units on the map that need to get properly assigned to their respective alliances.

    I'll PM you soon with my email address etc. so that we can get the biq over to you when it is ready.

    edit: Oh one more thing, do you play the brigade or division version of the scenario? I play the brigade version but am certainly open to playing the division version if you prefer.
     
  13. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Hi,
    is this going to be a two-player PBEM, or would you accept additional players? I'm currently playing three other PBEMs (see my signature below) and would like starting a new one, if you let me join.

    I realize that this game will probably last 2-3 years before completion and I'm willing to stay the full distance, no dropping out etc. In that case, you should probably open a new thread in the PBEM forum and continue the discussion of this game over there? (There are already other epic scenarios going on there as email games.)

    Thanks and best Regards, Lanzelot
     
  14. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Division is much more fun, IMHO!

    Yes, I think we may end up with more than 2 players. I PMed Moff and he will explain me some technical details, this will help us to decide. You certainly more than welcome to join if there is no way for one player to play 4 different civs as a hot seat scenario, then pass it to the other player (who plays 4 other civs). It is not a good idea to merge backward Russia and Italy with England and France -- the game will lose all its flavor :)
     
  15. Moff Jerjerrod

    Moff Jerjerrod Deity

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    Tigranes:

    Check your PM. :)

    Lanzelot:

    I would love to have more human players join! I will download the division version since all I have is the brigade version and begin setting up an 8 player PBEM game. We can have up to 8 humans play or keep it as us three with the ai playing the remaining factions. Also if anyone else is interested in playing please let us know!

    Btw I am a dedicated gamer as well and have no problem playing a PBEM for 2 to 3 years. I just want to play against a human instead of just against the boring ai all the time. lol
     
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Exactly... That's what brought me to PBEM.

    In any case: do start a new thread over in the "Civ3 - PBEM Games" forum. There you'll find other dedicated PBEM gamers to fill the ranks. And also this is a bit "off-topic" for the current thread.

    Lanzelot
     
  17. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Fair enough, I will open PBEM thread right now!
     
  18. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    I just discovered a strange thing. Walls give 75% defense and 8 bombard defense. Town (up to size 6) has defense 10, City has defense 40, Metropolis (13+ size) has defense 80. City and Metropolis loose walls. So Town has the strongest defense --- 85% PLUS bombard defense of 8.



    The default Town-0

    City -50

    Metro 100

    Walls 59 make more sense, IMHO....
     
  19. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    I really think we need to have more war weariness and war attrition effects in this scenario. It is true that Game already has a "secret" mechanism to reflect initial WW1 enthusiasm as all the Civs starting with Golden Age. After it ends things going to be harder for all. This is good, but not enough. Germany never has a feeling to race against the time and no effects of naval blockade either.

    I suggest to introduce a Raw Material Unit (just like in AoI) and two fictional cities (One British and one German) on the edge of the map. Special building could produce a "Princess unit" -- Raw Materials with the reverse flag capture mode enabled. Side effects would be a battle at Ocean, not just a shore waters like now. This way Germany still can lose, even with the foreign victories, if Allies manage to blockade German raw materials and safely deliver theirs.
     
  20. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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