Hickman888
Prince
Welcome to Greece, one of the most influential civilizations in world history! This thread is intended to congregate all things Greece (ideas, strategies, questions, savegames, etc.) into a single thread. I'll start this discussion off with my thoughts and ideas surrounding my recent historical victories with them.
Greece
I've played a lot of Greek games, both in 1.17, and now on the big map. More than any other civilization. Overall, compared to 1.17, I would say the technology goal is more difficult, and the conquest goal is usually easier. The recent nerf to Great Person bulbing was greatly felt by Greece, but it was an overall necessary nerf, because I felt that the bulbing ability way outshined the other options that Great People provide. Now it feels more balanced. IIRC, the big map Greek game has 20 extra turns compared to 1.17, and the tiles to conquer and control hasn't increased by too much, so starting your conquest "late" is less of a problem than it was before.
Barbarians, Sea People and the Hittites:
It is not uncommon for 2-3 "Iranian Chariots" to come around and attack Macedonia, or occasionally Greece, from the north Black Sea, circa 1300 BC-700 BC. I actually don't know if they're meant to represent Scythians or not, but wanted to bring attention to it, as it did seem odd to me.
The Sea People add another difficulty for Greece to contend with if they decide to start their conquests right at spawn. I like this, because in 1.17, it was possible to casually ship over your starting Hoplite, and usually conquer Egypt without too much trouble. Now, if the player wants to conquer early, they must train several additional units, in order to defend their new cities from the Sea People. It forces the player to really dedicate themselves to their decision.
However, of all the bronze age civilizations, the Hittites are the least likely to collapse from the Sea People, and the Egyptians are the most likely. In fact, of all the games I've played on the big map since release, (exclusively early game civilizations), I have only seen the Hittites collapse once from the Sea People, while the Egyptians might collapse 3 or 4 games out of 10. The Hittites almost always keep to their borders, defend their one hilled city, and go full turtle. The Sea People that do spawn in Anatolia usually end up lollygagging around, and only going to attack the Hittites one or three at a time, rather than in one big stack of doom. I think the Sea People pressure on the Hittites needs to be increased, to make their collapse more consistent.
Conquest Goal:
The conquest goal is currently in a pretty good spot. Your toughest battle usually ends up being trying to take out the walled, hilled Hittite city. However, I think if the Hittites were more consistently collapsed from the Sea People (or at least more weakened), and also accounting for the increase in turns that Greece has to play with... I think we can afford to expand this goal a bit. I suggest Greece be required to control the regions of Khorasan and Hindu Kush. Additionally, another requirement of "Settle 8 cities" should be tacked onto this goal. Settling 8 cities is both a nod to Greek colonization in the Mediterranean, as well as Alexander the Great founding cities all over the known world. These 8 cities would probably be: Athens, Sparta, Pella, Greek-core territory in Anatolia, a city in Hindu Kush to control there, and 3 more cities, wherever the player decides to settle. There are historical tiles for the Greeks all over the Mediterranean, let's give the player a reason to use some of them.
Specialist Economy:
Without getting too much into civics discussion (I don't want to share my overall opinion until I've had a chance to play through all the civics on the big map), I do want to say that the early "Republic" civilizations (Greece, Phoenicia) are really missing the "free scientist, statesman, merchant and artist slot" that 1.17 Republic provided. Letting new cities be able to expand their borders by running an artist for a few turns, or have a new city run a scientist while waiting for a worker to come improve their land, was incredibly helpful. It gave you the opportunity to go for an early Great Person, which I think should be a valid strategy that the Republic civic should allow for. I'd love to see that aspect of republic return. Libraries are expensive, and being able to access one of their benefits (free specialist slot) without building the building is great. As it is, it is all too easy to just let your three "free specialists" just be three basic citizens.
I'd also like to suggest another clam resource be added southwest of Sparta. This clam resource should be made exclusive to Greece, so that the next civilization that comes and conquers Greece will lose the clam. Greece currently only has two food resources, with 4 other tiles in Greece yielding either 0 or 1
. Adding this clam resource would not only allow a bit of flexibility in running more specialists as Greece, it would also allow Sparta to not just be a sad city that only exists to work the Cretan wine, and allow Sparta to maybe claim an extra land tile or two for itself. Further, it would give the player the choice of settling Sparta as their capital, rather than Athens, which I think would be fun.
Odeon:
In all of my Greek games, past and present, I have maybe built this building once. As a conquest civilization, you should rarely be putting your production into buildings that produce more, you should be training more military to conquer more resources! I suggest the +1 on the Odeon be replaced with +25% Great Person birth rate, to really play into the whole Great Person theme that Greece has going for them. It would also give Greece a little holdover of their UP after it expires after the Classical Era. I know this ability is very similar to the current Roman forum, but I have another suggestion for the Roman UB when I come to that.
Greece
I've played a lot of Greek games, both in 1.17, and now on the big map. More than any other civilization. Overall, compared to 1.17, I would say the technology goal is more difficult, and the conquest goal is usually easier. The recent nerf to Great Person bulbing was greatly felt by Greece, but it was an overall necessary nerf, because I felt that the bulbing ability way outshined the other options that Great People provide. Now it feels more balanced. IIRC, the big map Greek game has 20 extra turns compared to 1.17, and the tiles to conquer and control hasn't increased by too much, so starting your conquest "late" is less of a problem than it was before.
Barbarians, Sea People and the Hittites:
It is not uncommon for 2-3 "Iranian Chariots" to come around and attack Macedonia, or occasionally Greece, from the north Black Sea, circa 1300 BC-700 BC. I actually don't know if they're meant to represent Scythians or not, but wanted to bring attention to it, as it did seem odd to me.
The Sea People add another difficulty for Greece to contend with if they decide to start their conquests right at spawn. I like this, because in 1.17, it was possible to casually ship over your starting Hoplite, and usually conquer Egypt without too much trouble. Now, if the player wants to conquer early, they must train several additional units, in order to defend their new cities from the Sea People. It forces the player to really dedicate themselves to their decision.
However, of all the bronze age civilizations, the Hittites are the least likely to collapse from the Sea People, and the Egyptians are the most likely. In fact, of all the games I've played on the big map since release, (exclusively early game civilizations), I have only seen the Hittites collapse once from the Sea People, while the Egyptians might collapse 3 or 4 games out of 10. The Hittites almost always keep to their borders, defend their one hilled city, and go full turtle. The Sea People that do spawn in Anatolia usually end up lollygagging around, and only going to attack the Hittites one or three at a time, rather than in one big stack of doom. I think the Sea People pressure on the Hittites needs to be increased, to make their collapse more consistent.
Conquest Goal:
The conquest goal is currently in a pretty good spot. Your toughest battle usually ends up being trying to take out the walled, hilled Hittite city. However, I think if the Hittites were more consistently collapsed from the Sea People (or at least more weakened), and also accounting for the increase in turns that Greece has to play with... I think we can afford to expand this goal a bit. I suggest Greece be required to control the regions of Khorasan and Hindu Kush. Additionally, another requirement of "Settle 8 cities" should be tacked onto this goal. Settling 8 cities is both a nod to Greek colonization in the Mediterranean, as well as Alexander the Great founding cities all over the known world. These 8 cities would probably be: Athens, Sparta, Pella, Greek-core territory in Anatolia, a city in Hindu Kush to control there, and 3 more cities, wherever the player decides to settle. There are historical tiles for the Greeks all over the Mediterranean, let's give the player a reason to use some of them.
Specialist Economy:
Without getting too much into civics discussion (I don't want to share my overall opinion until I've had a chance to play through all the civics on the big map), I do want to say that the early "Republic" civilizations (Greece, Phoenicia) are really missing the "free scientist, statesman, merchant and artist slot" that 1.17 Republic provided. Letting new cities be able to expand their borders by running an artist for a few turns, or have a new city run a scientist while waiting for a worker to come improve their land, was incredibly helpful. It gave you the opportunity to go for an early Great Person, which I think should be a valid strategy that the Republic civic should allow for. I'd love to see that aspect of republic return. Libraries are expensive, and being able to access one of their benefits (free specialist slot) without building the building is great. As it is, it is all too easy to just let your three "free specialists" just be three basic citizens.
I'd also like to suggest another clam resource be added southwest of Sparta. This clam resource should be made exclusive to Greece, so that the next civilization that comes and conquers Greece will lose the clam. Greece currently only has two food resources, with 4 other tiles in Greece yielding either 0 or 1
. Adding this clam resource would not only allow a bit of flexibility in running more specialists as Greece, it would also allow Sparta to not just be a sad city that only exists to work the Cretan wine, and allow Sparta to maybe claim an extra land tile or two for itself. Further, it would give the player the choice of settling Sparta as their capital, rather than Athens, which I think would be fun. Odeon:
In all of my Greek games, past and present, I have maybe built this building once. As a conquest civilization, you should rarely be putting your production into buildings that produce more
, you should be training more military to conquer more resources! I suggest the +1 on the Odeon be replaced with +25% Great Person birth rate, to really play into the whole Great Person theme that Greece has going for them. It would also give Greece a little holdover of their UP after it expires after the Classical Era. I know this ability is very similar to the current Roman forum, but I have another suggestion for the Roman UB when I come to that.
birth rate effect. They both replace different buildings, after all (Theatre vs. Market). We can probably try to differentiate the two a little more by keeping the +1 
for the Odeon in addition to the 
