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The Green New Deal

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by metatron, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    Since this is starting to overly pollute that other thread of mine and has come up in some other places only to be addressed half-heartedly, we obviously need a dedicated thread for this.

    If i am not in error the following is the actual proposed resolution:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-resolution/109/text

    I suggest you debate the moral, economic and technological merit therein, not the silly FAQs that many have chosen to debate instead. :)
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    This is actually worse than I thought. "All existing buildings" lol.

    More use of flat "median wage gap" dishonesty thrown in there for good measure too, just in case the overt lack of credibility wasn't enough w/o it.

    I'm sure the project management estimates on this one are totally accurate and consistent with best practices.
     
  3. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    Yea its bound to be very expensive.

    The dictionary definition of economic mobilization is: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/economic+mobilization

    The process of preparing for and carrying out such changes in the organization and functioning of the national economies that are necessary to provide for the most effective use of resources in a national emergency.

    This project would require the massive reallocation of goods and services by government fiat, if that doesn't go through congress it will be illegitimate and will not work.

    History has seen zero forms of communism tried despite your memes best efforts, that said this isn't communism not even close. The fact that you resort to such hyperbole displays the weakness in your argument.

    A civil war is only ever coming from the right just like the last one, it will probably be almost as racist and hateful as the last civil war the right perpetrated on the US.
     
  4. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy I swear..

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    Is that the gardeners that will be reviving chattel slavery in the green new deal? Since if you pay them it'll be slaughter of the intelligencia? :ar15:
     
  5. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    I’m going to go with right over my head on this one FB.
     
  6. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    This is also not true. Marxism-Leninism/Vanguardism is an attempt at creating communism. If you draw your Leftist line at Marx, it is the attempt for creating communism. It didn't and hasn't achieved communism, but it was certainly a try at communism.

    And again, true communism has been tried: in Revolutionary Catalonia, in Free Ukraine, in Paris in 1871, in the autonomous Zapatista regions of Chiapas, and most recently (maybe, kinda-sorta, depending on who you ask) in Rojava. In most of these cases, the attempts were quashed (by counterrevolutionary actors) too quickly for us to really know if they would succeed in the long-term. We're still too early into Rojava (and again - still private property, so probably not really communism) to make a pronouncement, but, again, the autonomous Zapatista regions have been de facto autonomous for 15 years now and hasn't collapsed into a smoldering pit of destruction or breadlines or mass-starvation or whatever yet, so....
     
  7. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Ok I skimmed it. Looks great.
     
  8. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    I guess I stand corrected, Idk of most of these stories, just the "attempts" that I question every really got to the trying communism part but since I still believe in private property to a general extent I'm not a fan of communism anyways.
     
  9. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    ...you believe in private property in the actual sense of the word? Or in the sense that the American media memes to preempt class consciousness?
     
  10. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    Private Property as in:
     
  11. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    In the sense of owning your own home/land/goods/services.
     
  12. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    So the meme sense then.

    None of these are private property.

    Except possibly this one, and that comes down to what you mean by "your own goods"
     
  13. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    Go ahead and enlighten me on this one I guess. I'm just a simple American raised on the idea that home and land ownership was a basic premise of private property. I'm sure you have something you are trying to get me to understand here, but I'm off to bed now. I got to get up early to pay for the house the bank still owns at the moment. :mischief:
     
  14. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    Reminds me of the Leap Manifesto.
     
  15. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    Which definition of "private property" are we using here? The commonly used one, or some academic definition enforced by linguistic prescriptivists?
     
  16. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Actually the bank owning your house as contrasted to you owning your house is a good example. Yes, socialists are opposed to the private ownership of property, but what they mean by this is the private ownership and mobilization of the means of production (things necessary for community benefit) for personal enrichment. Your home isn't private property because it isn't something necessary for the benefit of everyone. Your home is, rather, called personal property. It's something that is yours. The bank laying claim to land and then refusing to let anybody live there unless someone pays them money for that privilege is an example of private property, because it is exploiting something necessary for the common good (undeveloped land/an unoccupied house) for personal enrichment.

    Here are some more examples to elaborate:

    Owning your home that you live in everyday: personal property, fine
    Owning a property which you rent out to others: private property, not fine

    Owning your own toothbrush: personal property, fine
    Owning the only machine that makes toothbrushes: private property, not fine

    Owning your own sheep: personal property, fine
    Building a fence around and claiming ownership of the only pastureland in the vicinity: private property, not fine

    Owning your own vegetable garden: personal property, fine
    Claiming ownership of the land on which all the community's food is grown: private property, not fine

    Having a garden shed with tools for your backyard vegetable garden: personal property, fine
    Claiming ownership of the plow/cultivator/harvester/etc. which are necessary for growing all the community's food: private property, not fine

    So to return to your list of private property things: home/land/goods/services:

    home is the definition of personal property. Everyone is entitled to their own space.

    land: depends on how you're defining land. Your own land in the sense of a space for you to live, maybe have a few hobbies, is personal property. Your own land in the sense of hoarding a monopoly on resources, or claiming ownership beyond what you need and "renting out" to others would count as private property

    services: not really something which applies under communism, or at least it depends on which kind of communist/anarchist model you're working under. Some have currency/a market/labor vouchers, others are more "dump all the things in the middle of town and everyone take as much as you need." Generally speaking, if the capitalist model is abolished, then there is no need for you to sell your body to stay alive, meaning that services are, by and large, less necessary, or at least less a thing that you are compelled to do for 2/3 of your waking hours or else face homelessness and starvation. It would, at least in theory, be more of a thing that you do because you want to be nice to your neighbor/family member/close friend/whatever. Also, again, without profit motive, there's no competitive redundancy, overproduction, planned obsolescence, etc., and so there's far fewer of the bullfeathers jobs that make up much of the service sector and white color today.

    goods: again, it depends on what you mean by goods. If you're going all Ron Swanson and making your own chairs or whatever. Yeah, have at it, that's yours to keep. Again, the incentive built into socialism is such that there's never a reason to hoard. You aren't making the chair because you literally couldn't afford a chair otherwise, and you aren't making one because profit-motivation and the market compel firms to push out cheap, flimsy wooden chairs that fall apart after a year. Under socialism you are, presumably, making the chair because woodworking is a passion for you and you enjoy the satisfaction of producing something good, and, given that the satisfaction comes from the act and not the object, and, given that you probably wouldn't need another chair of your own after the first 4 or 8 or whatever, maybe that 5th or 9th one you give to a friend or a neighbor. And the 6th/10th you give to a neighbor, and so on. You don't have to. Nobody's making you give that chair away. You just don't have a need or reason to keep it. So in that sense, goods are fine: something which you produce on your own time, which isn't necessary for the survival of the community, and in the production of which you aren't exploiting labor (i.e. paying someone $4 to make a chair which you sell for $10). Goods do become private property when they are the opposite of those things. If it suddenly happened that everybody needed your chair or else they would die or suffer a severely impacted quality of life, it is clearly immoral for you to then withhold that chair unless everybody jumped through a certain number of multicolored hoops for your amusement first.

    This is not that. Private property has a very specific meaning within the context of socialism, anti-capitalism, and Marxism, and which Marxism in fact coined. The "commonly used one" is actually a strawman which is deployed to dismiss and silence any actual discussion about socialism, anti-capitalism, and Marxism. This isn't a matter of a prescriptivist coming in and yelling at people because they're using ironic wrong or whatever. This is a matter of someone having a conversation with a linguist and lamenting the fact that English doesn't have umlauts. And when the linguist points out that English, does, in fact undergo umlaut, that person goes on a rant about how they don't care, English is a dumbed down, inelegant language, and that's not what umlaut means in common speech so actually the linguist is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
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  17. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    I think a major issue leftists have is they tend to insist on definitions agreed on by leftist academics and then insist that literally everyone who uses the word differently is wrong. This always causes confusion and backlash when there need be none. When you say you're against "private property," the majority of people are going to interpret that to mean that nobody can own anything and all things are communal. Your explanation is useful for something, and I agree that's probably how property should work, but that's simply not how "private property" is used outside leftist and academic circles. If you were to propose the abolition of "private property" outside these cloistered circles to the general public, conservatives would immediately say, "Oh, so you want the government to own my car and my house and my dog?!"

    And truthfully, a lot of people would think that's what you were planning, because that's how non-academics, myself included, use the term. We haven't read what you've read, we haven't discussed what and with whom you've discussed, we use the term differently, and if you ever want to spread these useful ideas beyond your circle, you'll have to speak the language of your audience.

    Leftists get into misunderstandings with those outside their circle all the time because of this tendency to use different definitions, and a lot of good leftist ideas are lost in the easily avoidable mess that results. For example, a leftist says "racism" and means "the systematic oppression of a race," whereas anyone else hears "racism" and thinks, "discrimination on any level, personal or institutional but usually personal, based on race." I'm mostly left-leaning, but if I hadn't used CFC and read leftists here, I don't think I'd ever have encountered the definition of "racism" in the strictly systematic sense. In everyday, non-leftist use, "racism" extends to include even white guys being called "crackers," not because anyone but a fringe believes that there's systematic anti-white oppression but because they've always been raised to think that race-based discrimination is called "racism." And then leftists, on seeing so many people think that's what "racism" means, lump them all into the category of "incorrigible bigots and centrists" and write them off as lost causes.

    Leftists have a lot of great ideas, maybe even mostly good ideas, but by insisting that their particular jargon is Right and literally everyone else is Wrong, they just confuse and alienate people.
     
  18. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Ok, apologies for the double post, but reflecting back, I think the first post is a bit dry, and still rather abstract, but as I was walking, home I thought of an analogy that actually fits quite well. So let me know if this helps you imagine what socialism is and how private vs personal property works better.

    So when I lived in California, I worked as a maintenance worker for a county parks system. As part of my job, I had a uniform, which was mine (paid for via voucher), work boots (paid for via voucher), a key holder (I bought), and a car (I bought), which I used to commute to work every day. In the park, I had a set of keys, which were mine, but which I signed for and which I had to return when I quit. The park had 3 vehicles for maintenance workers, and four maintenance workers (a senior, two permanents, and a seasonal). The senior and each permanent had a specific maintenance vehicle which they used every day, and in that sense it was "their truck," but really it was the park's trucks, and the seasonal would either tag along with one of the permanents for the day or use the unused truck if one of the permanents was off for the weekend. The third truck (the "senior's truck") was a dump truck, so we typically didn't use it for day-to-day operations. Each vehicle had various things in it: sets of tools, trash bags, cleaning implements, etc. These things stayed with the truck, and each maintenance worker was responsible with keeping their truck stocked and all the tools in good working order, so, again, they were seen by the staff as "theirs" in a sense, but the stuff went with the truck, so it really belonged to the truck and therefore the park. If the seasonal needed the truck to go do weed abatement, he was free to take it to get the job done. The park also had a maintenance shop, which was stocked with all kinds of various tools: weed whackers, leaf blowers, table/miter/skill saws, chainsaws, DR trimmers, a tractor with a flail attachment, etc. These were shop tools, and were free for all (maintenance and rangers alike) to use as needed (provided you had certification/training when necessary), with the expectation to return when finished and perform any maintenance/upkeep as needed (blowing/washing off trimmers/chainsaws, refueling, etc.). Finally, above the park there was other equipment that we the park could access when needed. For example, if we needed a woodchipper, or a slope mower, we could put in with Central Yard and borrow them to get our work done. We couldn't hold them forever - they were for the good of the whole parks system, not just one park - but we were welcome to use them as needed until the job was done. Moreover, if there was a job that required the use of heavy equipment - an air brake-powered vehicle, or a backhoe or an excavator, the park had a staff of specialists which were trained and certified to operate heavy equipment, which we could put a work order in for and they could come help us with the project. Finally, the park system had a fleet management, with a couple of garages dotted throughout the country. The garage had gas pumps for us to fill our trucks up as needed, and a staff of mechanics who would inspect the vehicles every time a mileage or yearly threshold was met, and would perform repairs on the vehicles in the event of a breakdown.

    This is all, generally speaking, the way things work in socialism. The uniform is mine, the car is mine, the home I live in is mine. The truck - the thing necessary for the good of all (i.e. the maintenance of the park) is held communally, and is free for everybody working in the park (all of the maintenance workers) to use as needs be. As are the tools. If you have weed whacking that you need to do, you're welcome to take it and do your thing, just don't treat it like crap, return it when you're done, and make sure it's in good working order for the next time when somebody needs it. In my experience in the parks, this system worked perfectly great. The necessary work got done when it needed to, the tools were used as needed and kept in good working order and stayed in a central location for all to use as needed. Also? It just felt great, super fulfilling to be in an environment with minimal oversight and projects and workflow which could be tailored to mental/physical state, and built around mutual aid, cooperation/collaboration, and making other people happy.
     
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  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Coming from the argument that government fiat of private assets is somehow okay, calling others out for weakness in an argument rings hollow.

    If you want to live in Venezuela you can move there. I'd prefer the USA not go down that path too.

    There's no slavery happening on wide scales in the USA and hasn't been for well over 100 years. If authoritarians are clamping down on people and get a hostile response, I wonder how history would see that.

    I suppose it does depend on who wins. I'd prefer to just leave the country if it comes to that though.
     
  20. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    Is "the green new deal" something that actually warrants serious discussion? If so, let's start with the obvious: what's the estimated cost for this plan?
     
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