The Hall of Players

[Pangaea]

Yes, you may not have enough votes to win by your own number of votes so you need to stay below 66% of the votes.

Thanks, so that would be the equivalent of 66% population, right?

 

[Major Tom]

Thanks, so that would be the equivalent of 66% population, right?

Not so sure Seriael is right. Usually I start to nuke down opposition to lower their population until the win is secured. Granted, I got vassals voting for me.

Edit: Oh, understand now you are talking about religious victory. There is a limit yes, but thought it was 75%.

Edit 2: Think it is votes, not population. Remember, adapting AP- religion your pop votes count double.

 

[Pangaea]

No, I meant UN, not the AP. People are talking about "Diplomation", so thought maybe it doesn't matter if you have almost all votes yourself, but it sounds like it judging by what Seraiel said.

Not sure I'll try for UN yet, but I might, so then it would be nice to know the mechanics

 

[Major Tom]

For UN victory, I am pretty sure there are no limits. I have never encounteted problems with such rule. If you got 66% I think, for all practical matters, domination win is already acheived.

To win, just get vassals and take out opposition city by city. Nukes are great. Also you often get an AI to friendly and voting for you by joining their war. Their war often is in your interest too.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

No, I meant UN, not the AP. People are talking about "Diplomation", so thought maybe it doesn't matter if you have almost all votes yourself, but it sounds like it judging by what Seraiel said.

It does but Vassals will always vote for you (unless they're the candidate) but don't count as your own votes.

 

[Seraiel]

I asked this question recently in the newbie-questions / fast answers thread, you can look at the exact answer there, it was that winning Diplo without at least 1 civ (may be a vassal) voting for you aswell isn't possible, and that the option for diplomatic victory isn't available if you got too many votes on your own (which I assume would be 66% but look for the exact value in that thread) .

 

[Pangaea]

If I can't have more than 62% of the votes myself, I'm already in a sticky position due to overpopulation. Kind of in a situation between two stools

Guess I need to locate the

edit: Crossposted with Seraiel. I'll check out the newbies then. But looks like I need to reduce our numbers a bit.

 

[Seraiel]

This is so laughable. The first AI got 1500 Longbows in my current game on Deity / Tiny / Marathon. 1T later, 2 others get it by trade, which I cannot even retrace how, but ok, the AI I want to attack didn't get it and has nothing to offer because I kept it backwards. I attack it, take 2 cities, two turns later it gets Feudalism aswell, 1300 BC, possibilities are only self-research by accident or it got it by begging / gifting from one of the other AIs. This was after I wasn't able to compete technologically with everybody but the AI which I kept backwards, and that from a three Gold start with Alpha first and successful Oracle Currency. Sometimes I really don't know why I keep playing this game.

 

[Seraiel]

I wonder if something is wrong with Mansa that I've forgotten:



This is a new game, I again have 2 workable Golds and oracled Currency and can barely keep up in tech. The avery GNP of the civs is 70, mine is 66, Mansa's is 150! He's researching Aesthetics in 8T, on Marathon, I think he needed 11 or 12 for Theology! How am I supposed to keep up with that? This is the 3rd of 3 games with BUFFY .004 in which Mansa's tech-ratio is completely off the charts and I have no idea why. Yes, he has 1 Gold and he also has 2 Silks (though I guess that those are still unimproved because it's not long ago since Calendar became available) , but he has 0 wonders. He founded 4/7 religions so you can subract 5 for the holy city from those 144, then he has 139 GNP, now every city of his also has the religion, then that's another 5 :culture, great, 134 GNP! Assume he has a Library, 132 GNP, assume he has 2, 130 GNP, but I have the Oracle giving 8 and also the religion in all cities (which he spread) so real GNP are 55! I'm playing crouded maps and every AI has a maximum of 6 cities. I ask myself if I've forgotten how to play Deity, but it's only Mansa all the time, how bad is that guy?

I'm gonna look up old games of mine now and compare them, this cannot be normal:

1. GM-137: Also 1760 BC, Mansa 112 GNP from 8 cities, he has 3 Golds though he settled on one, rival avery 63.
2. BurgerKing Time Victory: Mansa 92 GNP from 3 cities, map is also Big & Smalls, rival avery 68.
3. An old Inca-game which I had to abandon because of a DoW, Mansa 5 cities, 110 GNP, rival avery 66.
4. A Space game on Terra, Mansa 6 cities, 76 GNP, rival avery 62.
5. My Space Race with Giggles, Mansa 3 cities Mansa 93, rival avery 63.
6. Replay #5: Mansa 95 from 6 cities, avery 62.
7. A diplo game with Lizzy, 1790 BC, Mansa 2 Gold doing 75, rival avery 55 (Archipelagio) .
8. Replay #4, Mansa 6 cities, 70 GNP, interesting AI: Hatty, 140 GNP but with ToA + buddhist holy city + shrine. Rival avery 71.

I don't have any further Marathon savegames except some very very old Incan ones in which I couldn't play yet and have absolutely abstruse AI-setups (like with GK etc. ) . We see in all of the above examples that Mansa has a high chance to have a higher GNP, the avery GNP is very constant. What differs in all of my last games with BUFFY .004 though is, that Mansa has a GNP more than 50% higher than in the examples above, it's beyond the point at which comparing seems possible. I'll leave a note in the BUFFY-thread and ask if it's possible that Mansa got screwed somehow. If anybody else is making the same experience while testing the new BUFFY, plz tell.

 

[Seraiel]

I don't know what to do anymore







Noone will probably answer anyhow, so it's also useless to write something. I do it anyhow, hope is the last thing that dies . Mansa founded 6/7 religions and founded the right shrine. Interestingly enough, that only gave him about 30-50 GNP, so it's not really as if it would matter greatly, he's still researching in a tempo I can't keep up with and lately has won Liberalism. Roosevelt got the GLH + the Colossus + only coastal cities so his GNP are also through the roof. I conquered the biggest civ of the map, Lizzy whom I kept backwards and this time no Longbows 'til 700 BC when the Conquest was done and when I had advanced from 3 to 15 cities. Since then I'm economically recovering, but even with the Mids it seems I have no chance. I bribed the AIs against each other when I had the chance hoping that their tech-rate would sink, but it didn't happen. Directly after they made peace again they even traded with each other . I cannot build Oxford yet though PHI + Stone because I simply don't have the population to whip the Universities yet. Sounds ridiculous but it's 330 BC, so I guess this is not really because I played that bad. I'm asking myself if Frederick maybe is simply a too weak leader on Deity or if my settings are somewhat screwed. The thing is, that I have twice as many cities as Mansa and Viccy and a GLH + Colossus AI with many coastal cities is normal to run away, but it's Mansa and Roosevelt and they're all trading with each other and I have a last chance with Gunpowder to get onto the tech-trade-train again, Mansa is probably off into the future again though.

Whatever.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I don't know what to do anymore

Mansa is running away with your game?
And you are playing on Marathon speed?
Make a spy city!

Seriously, found a city 3E of your capital, spread Islam, put 6 spies in the city + wait 5 turns, and build in the city if you have music.

Set espionage slider to 100% to build up a huge amount of points with Mansa, then gift Mansa the spy city.
The city is close enough to Mansa's cities that it will be taken, and Mansa obviously isn't in any financial crisis.

The following turn, steal all his techs with -50% waiting bonus, -50% culture bonus, and -15% religion bonus.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Stolen techs don't even count against We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced counters.

Do you get the -15% Religion bonus if the AI shares your State Religion?

Also, it helps to state your intended Victory Condition. For example, if you're playing a late game (Space or Score), it looks as though there are still a ton of islands to which to spam Settlers. But, if, say, you're playing for Conquest, can Roosevelt be bribed into a war that you can then join in on?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Do you get the -15% Religion bonus if the AI shares your State Religion?

Nope.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=448709

Thankfully, Mansa appears to be running Free Religion based off the scoreboard, so Islam should give the desired -15% bonus. (Holy city is an additional -25%, but Seraiel doesn't appear to have the Islamic holy city)

 

[Seraiel]

Thx for your answers .

I already thought about stealing techs from Mansa, the city NW from my capital is very close but maybe founding an spy-target-city is even better . I hope he'll take it, otherwise I'll sit on a completely crap city ^^ . I'll evaluate stealing in the NW city first, because getting Nationalism alone from him would be enough to easily get me back into the tech-race again. I'd like to steal MT (which he libbed ) aswell maybe though.

I already bribed Roosevelt in war against Mansa. Mansa built up more units, neither of them seriously engaged in any battle, they made peace after 15-20T and then Mansa traded Guilds from him in exchange for something else . In the meantime, Viccy declared war on him a 2nd time after Mansa declared war on her (when I bribed her against Lizzy and Lizzy bribed Mansa against her ) so he's now against building up troops which will make my planned Conquest of him not easier. He currently has up to 11 troops in his cities, so I don't need to think about attacking him with my puny 8 Elephants and 3 left Catapults, but I have settled Marble and will have the HE up soon and then I'll have enough resources to whip a decent number of Trebs.

Settings are Deity / Tiny / Marathon / Space Race again like before. This time I was testing Big & Smalls, because Kaitzilla's result in GM-137 was so oustandingly good on it. I haven't planned on settling the islands though, if I do I would probably need to let Mansa live because I'll be at 45% map-ownage with his cities.

Thx for your feedback .

 

[Seraiel]

Roosevelt traded Guilds against Liberalism. Then he got PP. Then Victoria got Nationalism. Then Roosevelt traded Liberalism against Nationalism all of the AIs are now almost away in tech, but then this happened when I opened 1 of 2 huts that were left on the islands:

 

[Seraiel]

I trade Astronomy against PP + a bribe against Mansa and PP + Astronomy against Guilds + Nationalism. I just thought that I had isolated Mansa by this and didn't take the chance to take 800g from him for Astronomy. Then Viccy made peace and 1T, I didn't worry because Mansa had DoWed her once and she had DoWed him once so I thought trades weren't possible, . Mansa is cautious to Viccy even without OB and after the DoW and Viccy is cautious towards Mansa, so Viccy traded Astronomy against Military Tradition only 1T afterwards . That guy is the worst AI I've seen, he trades his best military tech towards someone that DoWed him knowing that AIs cannot conduct overseas invasions and knowing that I'm the real enemy .

At least I got the hookup towards the other AIs again, but now Mansa is giving me WFYABTA . Seems Kaitzilla's plan to gift him a crap city to get some techs via is become more closely with every turn, the problem is that I don't have the resources to build a Settler though . The capital is building Oxford, all other cities are size 2-3 because I needed to whip a Granary, a Courthouse or something else of great importance (i. e. WBs, Universities for Oxford, Forges for Universities, Missionaries because they pay back fast through OR or they're building Failgold, with size 2-3 building a Settler would be stupid anyhow so the only thing else than Failgold would be building Spies or Forges but I believe Failgold is better, especially with Oxford soon) .

 

[Seraiel]

Mansa has a crush on Viccy:



( "A first impression is a lasting one" lets him forget about Viccy having DoWed him . )

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Why does Failure Gold or Oxford matter if you want to steal techs? So, for the cost of 300 Hammers for a Settler, you can save a ton of Commerce spent on Espionage, which could equate to needing less Failure Gold or less Flasks.

As for whether Mansa will take the City, simply talk with him and see if he's currently willing to take some of your existing Cities; if he is, then he should be able to take a City that you settle for him.

Also, you'll save Hammers with such a gift City... when you are ready to declare war, he'll have parked some defensive troops inside of that City and you can nail them hard with your army.

 

[Seraiel]

Oxford matters because it's a Space Race Dhoomstriker. Espionage Economy is the most efficient form of economy, true, but to be really fast I need to make use of Roosevelt being friendly and Viccy not yet giving me WFYABTA because of the underdog-situation . With finding Astronomy I got back into the tech-race again, I got all techs except MT now. Now I have to make a choice on building a Settler (300 ) 3 Spies (240 ) and invest 6400 to steal MT 6400 into stealing MT, but I don't think that I will, because I can research Chemistry for it. Roosevelt is the only one lacking MT because Mansa traded with Viccy, I'd get a maximum of 1 tech, if I research a tech nobody has though I can get 2 techs + from Mansa.

EE is good if one has 0 chances to compare tech-wise, but it's unlikely to get me a HoF #1 and I have very high skills at tech-trading, so I usually am able to stay on the tech-trade-tradin until an AI exceeds 3 times of GNP. This was the case and this is very unusual for me, because I'm no n00b and I conquered 12 cities with only 8 Elephants and 8 Catapults losing only 5 Catapults, so I really don't know how much better a game should get, having 2 Golds is already far off from normal and people beat Deity on normal and even on Normal speed which everybody says is harder, I'm not sure about that anymore after this game and the preceeding one in which Mansa outteched me by so far, that he had Fission while I didn't even have Physics.

Something is clearly non-standard with both of those games, the other possibilities would be that I forgot what Deity means and how to play it or that Frederick is simply such a weak leader that he's unsuited for that scenario, but I don't think so because of the statistics I posted. I'm hoping some other players will also try a Space Race with BUFFY .004 and (non Incan! ) or try any other game that has Mansa into it. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the fixes that the BUG team applied to the "unaltered gameplay version of CIV" broke something. Maybe this is the best argument for the culture-bug to remain. I don't think that it's that likely that I only once got into the situation of having less than 1/3 of the GNP of the top-teching-AI and then this situation happen 3/3 times with BUFFY .004.

Sry for this long post .

 

[Seraiel]

@ Dhoomstriker:

Espionage in my case (without holy city) is less efficient than I thought btw. . I conduct 300 with 5 Libraries, 4 Universities and 1 Observatory but without multipliers I could only condut 200 so the cost of stealing MT is really as high as researching Chemistry (even with a city that has the 50% Culture bonus) . While MT would be nice I prefer Cannons on Marathon because they're stronger. Mansa having MT + Horses (+ Iron which... does the BUG-mod in the BUFFY .004 version not show anymore which resources the AIs are trading in the diplomacy -> relations screen? I think he's trading Corn to Viccy and gets Iron for that but cannot see) may make it difficult with Cannons but if he has only a few Cuirrs I'll be able to manage with my WEs (+ maybe 2-3 Pikes) .