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The Harpy Event: Is it worth it now?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Bootsiuv, Oct 24, 2009.

  1. Bootsiuv

    Bootsiuv Chieftain

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    NOTE: This is orbis, so a few things are different (for example, the free bard comes at festivals as opposed to drama). The reason I'm posting it here is that the orbis thread isn't as active, and this is still applicable in base FfH, assuming the harpy event was changed to create unhappy faces as opposed to city revolt, which IIRC, Kael said he was going to do/END NOTE.

    The harpy event used to be what basically equated to a free culture bomb, and getting it early was pretty much a no brainer.

    However, that was when the event made the city revolt for 15 turns, a problem quickly and easily solved by creating a great work in the city. Now the event causes 5 unhappy faces in the city "temporarily".

    I find myself torn these days by an early harpy event.

    In my current game as the Calabim, small, Erebus, quick...the event happened on turn 19. I've researched animal husbandry (close pigs)->masonry (close marble i.e. production boost) and am now on calendar. I'm generating 14 gold per turn, and my research is at 100%.

    I have one city, Prespur, which is size 3 currently. I haven't used my world spell yet.

    Given the above circumstances, how many of you would take the free great bard? I hate to pass up a free GP under almost any circumstances, but I would likely put the bard to sleep, research festivals ASAP for the other bard (a strategy I often employ, as I said, free GP's are delightful), and then use one bard for free writing, and the other for the golden age.

    Is this a sound strategy, or should I just kill the b***h and be on my way?

    Any insights are welcome.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  2. xalien

    xalien Chieftain

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    Well, since early on you only have like 5 happy faces, getting 5 red ones could mean that noone is going to work any tiles and your city shrinking to size 1, although calabim worldspell would help you quickly recover after the anger goes down. Productivity loss from unimproved tiles in early game isn't too big either so you basically have to estimate if there are any potentially serious threats nearby that could take advantage of your temporary stagnation.
     
  3. Calbrenar

    Calbrenar Chieftain

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    Obis moves the free bard to a tech that is freaking awesome already? Way to maintain early game balance for MP lol
     
  4. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    Out of the 10 or so times I've gotten it since it was changed to unhappiness, I've taken it once. This was because it happened in a brand-new city that had 9 happiness in it already from resources, so I knew it would barely effect my new city's growth.

    I settled the artist in my holycity for extra gold.
     
  5. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    That means it's a good choice, as opposed to the "well, duh" of before. I still find myself always taking it early, even though it delays my second city for some time, when I get it I can settle the bard there for huge culture and a gold source for the whole game.

    Basically, if someone won't beat you to your city location, it means the city will start with an oblisk & market, plus win any early culture battles. Of course, that can tick off the ai, so you should be careful. But even bulbing it early for animal husbandry can be a decent trade off, imo.
     
  6. Bootsiuv

    Bootsiuv Chieftain

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    A few things to note...

    1) The tech tree quite different in orbis. For example, exploration is gone, as pottery-> the wheel provide roads. Also, pottery provides cottages as opposed to education.

    Festivals is a strong tech, but I'm fairly certain it DOESN'T provide access to marketplaces in Orbis like it does in base FfH...these come at a later tech.

    So really, it's apples to oranges, and a direct comparison isn't valid IMO.

    2) I've never played Orbis in MP, but I seem to recall people having some issues getting MP up and running in that modmod. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Anyways, I still have the event up in my game (alt-tab), and after further thought, I really can't pass it up, especially considering I have River of Blood to recover more quickly.

    Anyways, thanks for the help, and I'd still be interested in hearing if other players find it worth it now that it has been balanced.
     
  7. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Well ... it can be worth it if you have at least 3 extra happiness, feel fairly stable compared for growth (if in capital city) ... and as long as it happens in a secondary city whose growth is not absolutely vital, its usually a good idea to get the bard.

    In multiplayer, its ALWAYS best (once you have the bard) to perform a great-work for a land-grab .... usually in a new city. It usually culture beats an enemy capital even ... not enough to culturally convert a well established city, but certainly enough to gain the advantage in a contested border-culture war.

    Of course, culture bombing a human player is a good way to get ruthlessly invaded xD ... which is why I would like the implementation of influence-based wars, so one is not pressed to take the CITY for merely a few contested squares. If its just a few contested squares, I would rather battles out in the field to decide the outcome. (sitting in an enemy tile should slowly convert, as if they were "winning" battles, but obviously at a slower rate)-a different type of pillaging, culture pillaging.
     
  8. Dean_the_Young

    Dean_the_Young Chieftain

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    I disagree. If it comes to a point where it's so situational that it's a 1:10 ratio that it's worth taking it, it's not a good choice. Extremely situational choices aren't an even balance, because there's very little delimma involved, even if it's a painful choice to make. One choice will be far better than the other.
     
  9. Verdian

    Verdian Chieftain

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    I still take the bard. The only time I might not is if it is an important city that is still really new, or if I was in a tight spot that required that city be happy (a losing war, for example). Five unhappy faces is nothing, especially mid and late game (I reach my unhealthy cap way before my unhappy cap). I usually don't even notice them, and a free great bard has so many uses. So far I have not been in a situation where I turned it down.
     
  10. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    I guess we have a different view of the event. I think it could go either way any of the times that I've seen it. Settled great people are a huge asset, especially early on, but now there is a significant price. I've always taken it, but always thought twice about it.
     
  11. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    Well, consider that Great Artists are generally considered one of the weaker Great People. Now consider that the other GP events, like the GE one, only require ~80 gold. In most situations, I would rather give up 100 gold then face 5 unhappiness, even if it is only temporary(lasts a long time though). So no, I wouldn't say it's balanced.
     
  12. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Chieftain

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    4000 :culture: in one turn isn't so bad.
     
  13. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    80 gold is an absolute bargain, dirt cheap for any GP; the only reason you would ever not take it is if you don't have that much. While you can always take the unhappiness, you just might not want to every time.
    The gold-costing great person is cheaper because it is balanced on the fact that the existence of the event entices you to keep extra gold around every time even if you'd rather speed your research or upgrade units, or else you'll miss out on a great bargain. Unless you are Khazad, you don't want surplus gold on hand when you could have research or more powerful units instead, so the events that cost gold force you to advance slightly (very slightly, I'll admit) more slowly if you want to be eligible for them. Whereas you always want happiness.

    I'll agree that the events aren't equivalent in cost, though, but I think the 80 gold for a GP is cheap and the several turns of unhappiness is a steep price but one I'm willing to pay more often than not. Perhaps I'm not looking at the math right, but this is my intuition about it.
     
  14. Verdian

    Verdian Chieftain

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    Perhaps it is just my luck, but the Harpy event happens a lot more often than the Engineer event. That is another way they are evened out. There is nothing wrong with a rare event giving you something great and a more frequent event giving you something good. In MP games (which I admit I do not play) I would imagine all events are unbalancing, as they are random and beyond the players control.
     
  15. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    Not really. They're not that different from a lair pop, or even a lucky/unlucky starting location in terms of advantages/disadvantages they give.
     
  16. Morlark

    Morlark Chieftain

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    In my experience (playing on Marathon game speed with the double events game option enabled - so a lot of events) they're both equally common. In fact I just checked the XML, and their trigger info entries are both the same.

    On the other hand, if you want to talk about more common GP events, the Amathaon/Ceridwen constellation event occurs much more frequently, and the prophet is even cheaper than the engineer.

    The prophet event is actually set to have the same frequency as the Bareke and Clairone events. The only difference is that it's repeatable, which means you'll always end up seeing it a lot more. In one of my recent games I got the Amathaon event three times before turn 100.
     
  17. ADHansa

    ADHansa Chieftain

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    I think it is an intresting event at the moment. The deciding point is the size and the happycap of the city. If I can take the harpy without starving 2 or more people i do so. That means that if happens to a midearly grown capital, i usually want to have achieved a happycap of 7-9 to choose it.
     
  18. moyang

    moyang Chieftain

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    Good event While in Stasis.
    Yes, I got this event while in Stasis once...
     
  19. zup

    zup Chieftain

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    I hardly find it situational. I always take it. Then I settle it. Early on, 3gp per turn allows me to run 100% science and accumulate surplus cash for unit upgrades and other random events, specifically the great engineer and great prophet pops. I might lose some commerce from scientific research, but if I have to lower my science so I can afford to upgrade two uber warriors to axemen as soon as I can, I still lose research. The insane culture rate of great bards allows me to pursue cultural victories far more quickly and claim tiles from my neighbours. If some of my citizens starve, it hurts of course, but not nearly as much as one might expect. After all, I play noble and do not have to get perfect games to survive.
     
  20. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    How long does it take for the unhappy to dissapear? 10 turns per unhappy, 10 turns for it all? or what?
     

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