The heroic epic

RealHuhn

Emperor
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Aug 31, 2009
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Germany
I don't think I've ever built the heroic epic, even if I plan to win by domination.

So when do you guys build it?

The morale promotion grants you +15% damage and it stacks with great generals. Sounds very powerful but there's always other important stuff to build :cry:
 

Civsassin

Immortal
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Nov 13, 2007
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Virginia Beach
I don't think I've ever built the heroic epic, even if I plan to win by domination.

So when do you guys build it?

The morale promotion grants you +15% damage and it stacks with great generals. Sounds very powerful but there's always other important stuff to build :cry:

Build it early since barracks are available at the start of the game. You can have it up and running early, and the Morale bonus works well with other Honor policies.
 

grandad1982

Deity
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Messages
2,552
I never build it but its probably bwest to do when you have few cities (like all National Wonders) so you don't need to build to many barracks. Don't forget to remove the barracks from cities you don't nedd them in once the HE is up.
 

SeerTenedos

Chieftain
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Aug 28, 2007
Messages
24
RealHuhn: Try playing as Russia for the Krepost sometime just to play around with the idea of a heroic epic. I find it is much easier to find the return on investment that way, as you are motivated to build barracks in every city. Once you have had a few games with it you will have a better feel for how best to use it to suit your playstyle.

Personally I tend to build it less often when I have lots of trading partners, and more often when I have fewer trading partners. With lots of research agreements I can keep pace and get ahead in technology (and military tech), without that I am more inclined to rely on the military bonus to keep up to speed militarily.
 

MisterSaturnine

Warlord
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Mar 9, 2011
Messages
110
It's really useful for war efforts, and can save you a bunch of production in the long run. Heroic Epic means you can be more effective with fewer troops, which is useful for both offense and defense--especially at the same time. For example, let's say you send out a well-promoted strike force of sorts to conquer a neighbor, and you get dogpile DoW'd. More effective troops abroad means you can keep a couple more in your cities to stave off incoming attacks, and of course, those defensive units are also more effective, meaning that you can siphon off troops from homeland defense and back into the battlefield when the need arises. Flexibility is key in a game of Civ, and the Heroic Epic gives you that.

I don't build the Heroic Epic in all games, and not even in all military games. In my opinion, it's best to shoot for with a one-city empire (at least until the National College and the Heroic Epic are complete) so that you have to build only one barracks, and a strong production capital is important--I don't think the morale bonus is worth it if it means missing out on the important economic buildings you need early to gain an edge, and it's most useful as early as possible. For this reason, I find the GE from Meritocracy to be very useful if you're considering building the Heroic Epic. Settling him for the manufactory means you can produce the buildings you need to stay relevant, then the heroic epic, and then quickly crank out units. With both a barracks and an armory, you can specialize each unit and create small but extremely effective armies.

I especially enjoy this strategy with England. A barracks, an armory, and the Heroic Epic means you can equip your longbowmen with the Siege promotion and crank out a strike-force of extremely potent city-busters who can take down resistance before they can even reach you. They're practically early artillery. Combine with a horse unit promoted up the medic tree and the most relevant melee unit with cover or something (I like cover, as it allows me to station my melee units on hills and not worry about bombardment or archer fire as much) and you're pretty much golden.
 

Deau

Emperor
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Whenever I do a Deity domination plan, I build it very very early in the game to make sure all of my units have it. The line up for the city production is like purchase library - hammer focus the NC, purchase the barracks (or hard build if gold is an issue) and hammer focus the HE. I line up 4-5-6 warriors right after that will be rush promoted to LSs uppon sling-shotting Steel through RAs.

It seems to give my units just enough an edge to prevent the AI from zerging one of my front lines with 4-5 units, helping me build a super-promoted front line as opposed to having to replace dead units over and over during my progression.

It is very very tight a line up and isn't really worth it if you tend to do NC start and REX right after. It is very powerful for one-city domination opener where you just mass puppet the crap out of the map.

I generally settle my meritocracy GE which helps a lot to get NC/HE and enough units up by Steel around turn 75-85.
 

pirsq

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
Messages
88
In the national college -> steel rush, there are two windows you can build it:

1. Your national college tends to finish halfway through iron working. If you build a barracks, it will finish slightly after iron working. This allows you to build the national epic immediately after. It will probably finish a couple of turns after steel, but losing a few turns to get the morale promotion is usually worth it.

2. If for some reason you couldn't get it then (perhaps you are Aztec and want to pump jaguars before metal working makes them obsolete), then when you're teching to cannons/riflemen, there'll be a period where you don't have the tech for any more economic buildings and don't have the iron for any more military units. Good time to get your barracks/epic/armory up.
 

Deau

Emperor
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Actually the favored window is to purchase library and barracks to rush build NC and HE in order to have about 10-20 turns left before your Steel sling shot to build masses of warriors. You don't really want to have to hardbuild longswords after teching steel as by the time you are done having 3+GG or 4 of them, you will almost already be at even tech (at least on emperor+ you can expect AIs to get longswords around turn 100
 

roguepro92

Warlord
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Mar 19, 2010
Messages
218
if my capitol is hammer decent and will be knocking out soldiers and nothing else.
i'd make the effort for heroic epic.
 
Joined
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I've finally gotten to playing around with Cultural victories, and I find that if you go for the "one city and puppet the rest" strategy, the HE is really handy. Otherwise, it just takes too much time early on to wait around for all the other pieces to fall into place to build it early on. Might feel differently once I get serious about RA blocking though.
 

RealHuhn

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Thanks for the tips! Building the HE as fast as possible seems to be a good plan.

Best strategy so far:
Early monument -> buying library -> NC -> barracks -> HE while teching to steel and going down the right side of the honor tree for the 50% discount (cultural CS is recommended)

Emperor AI didn't have a chance.
 

Pep

King
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May 28, 2002
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Spain
I never build it but its probably bwest to do when you have few cities (like all National Wonders) so you don't need to build to many barracks. Don't forget to remove the barracks from cities you don't nedd them in once the HE is up.

I think the prerequiste to build HE should be changed from barracks to city walls. It's unfun micromanagement having to build and then sell the barracks in cities not producing military units.
 

Deau

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I think the prerequiste to build HE should be changed from barracks to city walls. It's unfun micromanagement having to build and then sell the barracks in cities not producing military units.

That would be awful...I don't think I ever built or purchased city walls when trying for a domination victory (unless I've had really awful luck on early DoWs and couldn't defend without it). Plus, I generally tech masonry much later than bronze working, more often than not I wait for it after the RA slingshot (aka I get steel before I get masonry).

HE is much more of an offensive building. Wouldn't quite make sense for it's prereq to be a defensive building.
 

Deau

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Thanks for the tips! Building the HE as fast as possible seems to be a good plan.

Best strategy so far:
Early monument -> buying library -> NC -> barracks -> HE while teching to steel and going down the right side of the honor tree for the 50% discount (cultural CS is recommended)

Emperor AI didn't have a chance.

I have just been playing an ottoman's janissary rush as my latest Deity game. On standard speed/standard size, the very first rush is delayed so much it turns out to be nearly impossible to go for a total domination victory but diplo will be a joke (12500g peace treaty surrender from shongai around turn 185...allied every CS the next turn to jump from very weak beakers(like 150-200) all the way up to 750 beakers/turn

Regardless though, the ottomans janissary rush kinds of involve doing the first rush on rifling after upgrading 30exp+HE(morale) janissaries into riflemans because even though they are really strong on offense, the base 16str of janissary makes them much too vulnerable to longswords to rush as is (unless you feel like having tons of casualties). The morale buff is just enough that the AI doesn't zerg my awesome rifles with their own rifles, allowing me to weaken them w ranged and then killing them with the upgraded janissaries, which heal to full right after and thus are at no real harm of being zerged the next turn since the AI only attacks a unit if it has a "decisive" chance of killing the unit in the same turn.

Anyway, in the end, upgrading a janissary to mech inf with blitz promotion is so funny. Was killing 4 rifles/infantry per turn with a single unit and still finishing the turn @full health.

As for the opening SPs, I still have been sticking to a meritocracy opening for earlier lux' sales(free worker +25%) and the settled GE but I have been seriously considering professionnal army as picking both isn't exactly viable since you want to get patronage-scholasticism as fast as you possibly can on emperor+. Figure once I go back to non all-land maps I'll start getting it because the naval upgrades are unbareable w/o it.
 

EditorRex

Master of Allusion
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Oct 25, 2006
Messages
359
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NC
I've finally gotten to playing around with Cultural victories, and I find that if you go for the "one city and puppet the rest" strategy, the HE is really handy. Otherwise, it just takes too much time early on to wait around for all the other pieces to fall into place to build it early on. Might feel differently once I get serious about RA blocking though.

I've been playing this strategy lately with great success and HE is a key component. But it's NOT JUST FOR CULTURAL VICTORIES. Done right, it also works well from Domination, at least at Prince and King. Possibly not so much for Deity and Immortal. Basically, you make the HE an early priority. As soon you've got your bonus buildings and it in place, you start spamming your early UU (or the unit that will cheaply upgrade to it). I adapted this from a thread somewhere on here wher a person recommended doing this with China, because of the double attack ability of their UU (which they retain after promotion!). However, it also works well with other UUs. I have a game as Germany going now where the ability to spam UUs early and cheaply with these extra bonuses makes for an unstoppable army until they start getting better defenders.
 

Bibor

Doomsday Machine
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Barracks cost little to rush-buy and mere 1 GPT to maintain. For warmongers, it's as important as the National College.
 

Deau

Emperor
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I've been playing this strategy lately with great success and HE is a key component. But it's NOT JUST FOR CULTURAL VICTORIES. Done right, it also works well from Domination, at least at Prince and King. Possibly not so much for Deity and Immortal. Basically, you make the HE an early priority. As soon you've got your bonus buildings and it in place, you start spamming your early UU (or the unit that will cheaply upgrade to it). I adapted this from a thread somewhere on here wher a person recommended doing this with China, because of the double attack ability of their UU (which they retain after promotion!). However, it also works well with other UUs. I have a game as Germany going now where the ability to spam UUs early and cheaply with these extra bonuses makes for an unstoppable army until they start getting better defenders.

One-city NC/HE openers work just fine on Deity as well. The turn tuning and RA signing is just much, much more tight if you wish to ensure to have 4 morale-buffed warriors ready for LS upgrade after Steel sling shot. It was actually how I pulled my first Deity total-domination victory after .275

It is not as powerful as before the patch because you somewhat commit yourself to having very weak military for at least 60 turns which can lead to bad DoWs with the new opportunist AI but since you don't settle new cities, you don't get the penalty for settling close to a neighbor and have very, very little chances of being denounced.

The only reason why I would drive away from a NC+HE opener on a domination game nowdays, is if I intend to go honor-decent sp-awful sp-Professional army (-50% upgrade cost) and want to field 6-7-8 warrior-> LS upgrade by turn 75-80 instead of my standard very promoted 4 unit opener.

HE will grant you units that will survive even-teched wars when fully upgraded later in the game, the PA alternative will allow you to field bigger armies, buy CSs earlier, get a few more RAs on the way and probably alleviate the tech progression issues of high difficulties through obtaining a bigger empire earlier in the game and the CSs/RAs extra you get from saved upgrading gold.
 

roguepro92

Warlord
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
218
a question to these one city NC/HE openers.
does that work just as well on emperor, epic speed, huge maps?
or is it just for normal speed.
because i tried that on epic and built both, max amount of army my economy can sustain (12-15units) and i was still long long away from steel. unless i failed and i didn't tech block RA either.
 
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