ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Firaxis drops a bombshell in the chat: Holy Roman Empire is in BTS with Charlemagne as a leader.
The question is: Good move, bad move, or meh?
The question is: Good move, bad move, or meh?
The Holy Roman Empire is neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss!
- Thread starter ChrTh
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LightSpectra
me autem minui
The thread title is a nice little quote that history teachers like to say, but it was a lie. What killed the Holy Roman Empire was the Protestant reformation. Before Luther, the HRE was probably the dominant power of Europe. It was Holy Roman in that it served the Catholic Church, and it was an empire in that they conquered outward from central Europe.
Gaius Octavius
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The title says it all: The "Holy Roman Empire" was neither Holy nor Roman. (It was an Empire, though.)
Of course, this may not have any bearing on if it should be included. It still was an important institution in its own right. However, I was always under the impression that it was "covered" by France and Germany. We'll just have to see how it looks in-game.
Of course, this may not have any bearing on if it should be included. It still was an important institution in its own right. However, I was always under the impression that it was "covered" by France and Germany. We'll just have to see how it looks in-game.
ohcrapitsnico
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This would be similar to adding the abbasid caliphate although I would enjoy it if they did that very much...
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Are you saying Voltaire and/or Linda Richman would lie to me?!?! I'm verklempt!
ohcrapitsnico
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It was an semi organized feudal society at best.
LightSpectra
me autem minui
Voltaire lived two hundred years after the Protestant reformation, which was the declining period of the HRE. Then it was true; they were half Protestant, so "Holy Roman" doesn't make sense, and they were quickly losing territory as an "empire."
But remember, just because the HRE sucked for its last three hundred years doesn't diminish its glorious age from 800 to 1500.
But remember, just because the HRE sucked for its last three hundred years doesn't diminish its glorious age from 800 to 1500.
Bongo-Bongo
The Master
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I can live with them being in, but I'm a bit dissapointed. We already have around a dozen European civs, and the HRE could effectively be represented by Germany. A more unique civ would have been a much better choice then HRE.
Lucky The Fox
Prince
I dunno really. My first reaction was shocked, but I guess I can live with it. I know many people have wanted Charlemagne in the game (and rightly so) and this is a much better way to introduce him than just making him a French leader.
LightSpectra
me autem minui
I do agree, though. You could cram the HRE into Germany; obviously they had no problems with that before, as Frederick was part of the German civ. Really, Israel and Italy would have been so much more appropriate.
Once more, he would've been part of Germany. Anybody arguing he should've been part of France is grasping at straws.
Once more, he would've been part of Germany. Anybody arguing he should've been part of France is grasping at straws.
ohcrapitsnico
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I would be interested to know how this plays into RFC if it does at all.
Well, Frederick should be part of the German civ, as he founded the core for the modern Germany. He never lead the HRE, which was firmly in the hand of the Austrians at that time (Anyway, it didn't mean anything but a title anymore).
Lucky The Fox
Prince
Pretty much so. I just remember seeing people suggest that he should be a French leader.
ohcrapitsnico
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Well there certainly is enough debate that Firaxis won't give him to either but his own civ.
Gaius Octavius
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For what it's worth, some info in the HRE. I only hope it's right (it's from "Wiki-junkia" 
).
The Holy Roman Empire (Latin Sacrum Romanum Imperium) was a mainly Germanic conglomeration of lands in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It was also known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation from the late 15th century onwards.
It originated with the coronation of Charlemagne by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day, AD 800, and lasted until the abdication of Emperor Francis II in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars. After the partition of the Frankish Empire by the Treaty of Verdun in 843, the de facto sovereignty of the Emperors became confined first to the central and later (and for most of the Empire's subsequent history) to the eastern portion of the former Frankish dominions.
At its post-Carolingian peak, the Holy Roman Empire encompassed the territories of present-day Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Belgium, and the Netherlands as well as large parts of modern Poland, France and Italy. At the time of its dissolution it consisted of its core German territories including Austria, the Czech Republic, and Slovenia, and smaller parts of Italy, Poland, and Croatia.
The Holy Roman Empire was a conscious attempt to resurrect the Western Roman Empire, considered to have ended with the abdication of Romulus Augustulus in 476. Although Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus on 25 December 800, and his son, Louis the Pious was also crowned as Emperor by the Pope, the Empire and the imperial office did not become formalized for some decades, due largely to the Frankish tendency to divide realms between heirs after a ruler's death. It is notable that Louis first crowned himself in 814, upon his father's death, but in 816, Pope Stephen V, who had succeeded Leo III, visited Rheims and again crowned Louis. By that act, the Emperor strengthened the papacy by recognising the importance of the pope in imperial coronations.
After the end of the Napoleonic Wars a new German union was established in 1815. It lasted until 1866 when Prussia dissolved the German Confederation to form the North German Confederation which became a nation state in 1871 (see German Empire). The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was also known as the Old Empire (First Reich) while the new empire was known as the New Empire, second Empire, or Second Reich.
It has been said that modern history of Germany was primarily predetermined by three factors: the Reich, the Reformation, and the later dualism between Austria and Prussia.
).The Holy Roman Empire (Latin Sacrum Romanum Imperium) was a mainly Germanic conglomeration of lands in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It was also known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation from the late 15th century onwards.
It originated with the coronation of Charlemagne by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day, AD 800, and lasted until the abdication of Emperor Francis II in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars. After the partition of the Frankish Empire by the Treaty of Verdun in 843, the de facto sovereignty of the Emperors became confined first to the central and later (and for most of the Empire's subsequent history) to the eastern portion of the former Frankish dominions.
At its post-Carolingian peak, the Holy Roman Empire encompassed the territories of present-day Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Belgium, and the Netherlands as well as large parts of modern Poland, France and Italy. At the time of its dissolution it consisted of its core German territories including Austria, the Czech Republic, and Slovenia, and smaller parts of Italy, Poland, and Croatia.
The Holy Roman Empire was a conscious attempt to resurrect the Western Roman Empire, considered to have ended with the abdication of Romulus Augustulus in 476. Although Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus on 25 December 800, and his son, Louis the Pious was also crowned as Emperor by the Pope, the Empire and the imperial office did not become formalized for some decades, due largely to the Frankish tendency to divide realms between heirs after a ruler's death. It is notable that Louis first crowned himself in 814, upon his father's death, but in 816, Pope Stephen V, who had succeeded Leo III, visited Rheims and again crowned Louis. By that act, the Emperor strengthened the papacy by recognising the importance of the pope in imperial coronations.
After the end of the Napoleonic Wars a new German union was established in 1815. It lasted until 1866 when Prussia dissolved the German Confederation to form the North German Confederation which became a nation state in 1871 (see German Empire). The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was also known as the Old Empire (First Reich) while the new empire was known as the New Empire, second Empire, or Second Reich.
It has been said that modern history of Germany was primarily predetermined by three factors: the Reich, the Reformation, and the later dualism between Austria and Prussia.
Aztec_Snoopy
Chieftain
i do not think the HRE is a good choice because its pretty much combining the Germans and French. which is stupid. since we already have both of them.
WOOHOO FIRST POST
WOOHOO FIRST POST
r_rolo1
King of myself
IMHO adding HRE was a bad idea. We really don't need two german civs...
Even Poland would add better.
Even Poland would add better.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Seems like the only reason they're doing this is because they want the Charlemagne leader for the scenario, and- as has been pointed out- it would be disputed about whether he belongs in France or Germany. Hell, even Austria would be better than this.
Aztec_Snoopy
Chieftain
Charlemagne's an okay idea for a leader, but the HRE is not a good idea for a civ!
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