1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The Holy Roman Empire is neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by ChrTh, Jun 15, 2007.

?

What do you think of HRE?

  1. It's great! I'm glad they finally got some respect!

    65 vote(s)
    18.7%
  2. Eh, it's ok. Not my first choice, but I don't mind.

    145 vote(s)
    41.7%
  3. I wish they had done a different Civ.

    89 vote(s)
    25.6%
  4. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it!

    49 vote(s)
    14.1%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    6,580
    Location:
    Torino - Italia
    I doubt it Feet, there are a lot of cities in Germany that were important in the MA but are far less important now, not present in the german city list or very low in it. Plus Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, Austria, Alsace and north Italy.
     
  2. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    6,580
    Location:
    Torino - Italia
    Let's see, with all the political or otherwise influencial great people from Italy you could pick from the fall of the roman empire to the present day, you went to pick a guy that merely led some battles for the reunification ?
     
  3. Feet

    Feet Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    143
    Location:
    Southend, UK
    Ha! That just goes to show how poor my history is then. :p
     
  4. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    283
    Location:
    Wichita, Kansas
    I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate this decision and agree with the poster who said it was the worst decision firaxis has ever made.

    Will Frederick get moved from Germany to HRE since he technically ruled during HRE times?
     
  5. Gladi

    Gladi The ignored thread killer

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,314
    Location:
    EU- Czechia, City of Hundred Spires
    Ahem, you forgot to colour whole Holstein... It being a former Imperial territory under danish king is what led to war between Denmark and Prussia+Austria.
     
  6. Perfxion

    Perfxion Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    Goldcoast, USA
    That map has to be a full 300 years AFTER Charlemage's reign. Since all of France and almost 2/3 of Italy would be colored red to show the land of his empire. This map is well after the 843 split, and may be after the second split of East Francia.
     
  7. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    12,988
    Location:
    Paris, west side (92).
    Well yeah that's the whole point. It represents the Holy Roman Empire, not the Carolingian Empire.

    Haven't you got yet that Charlemagne never ruled the HRE ?
     
  8. Archduke Otto

    Archduke Otto Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Zurich
    Your map doesn't include the Kingdom of Burgundy (Arelat), which faisait part of the HRE as well. Actually, the HRE encompassed large territories of modern day France: Lorraine, Lyons, Provence, Franche Compté...
     
  9. ds61514

    ds61514 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    210
  10. ChrTh

    ChrTh Happy Yule!

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    6,255
    Location:
    Piedmont Triad, North Carolina
    Article has a fallacy in it; he doesn't say it's going to end in 2060, but that it won't end before then. Newton actually said:

    "It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner," Newton wrote. However, he added, "This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail."

    Source

    EDIT: As a result, we need to be careful that the article you linked didn't add the Holy Roman Empire in 800 explanation on its own. Let me see if I can online what was actually stated.

    SECOND EDIT: Here is a pretty detailed explanation of what is happening with Isaac Newton's calculations. He chose 800 AD as the start point because it marks the beginning of the "Pope's Supremacy" (since he crowned Charlemagne).
    So 800 is the "complete conquest of the three kings", but no mention of the HRE from this info. I think softpedia added the reference, and therefore Newton is not an authoritative source on this discussion. :D
     
  11. Onagan

    Onagan The Dutch

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    Messages:
    902
    Location:
    Järfälla, Sverige
    You right he didn't rule the HRE, because it wasn't called so during his life. His Empire and Title evolved after his death in the HRE.

    But Justinian I wasn't Emperor of the Byzantine Empire, but Emperor of the Roman Empire, only century's later is was called Byzantium
     
  12. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    12,988
    Location:
    Paris, west side (92).
    It's not simply a matter of name, but also a matter of different entities.

    When Charlemagne took power in 768 AD, he was territorially speaking ruling what became later the French kingdom. It's only during his reign that he has conqueered what will become later the Holy Roman Empire (aka the Eastern neighbour of the French kingdom). But what has happened next ?

    At the Treaty of Verdun, the Carolingian Empire is split in three, as it's been already explained several times. However, these three parts didn't last very long ! They've been divided again and the former Carolingian Empire simply exploded in multiple parts. Actually, none of these multiple successors took back the title of Emperor... they were simply sharing Eastern Francia. We had to wait Otto the Great, who's not from the Carolingian dynasty but actually the second of the Ottonian dynasty, to see a new coronation of an Emperor. That means 2 centuries after Charlemagne took power as King of the Franks.

    So as you can see, there's certainly a tie between the HRE and the Carolingian Empire, but it's really far too thin to be considered as being one and the same. It would be a bit similar as considering Clovis as being the first French king for the simple reason he's been the first king to establish Paris as his capital city. It's not because there's a tie that it makes of them the same and unique entity.
     
  13. Perfxion

    Perfxion Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    Goldcoast, USA
    But in the title of "HRE" is LONG after both of their deaths, the start of that empire is 800 with the crowning of Charlemange.

    Its like saying the US was founded in July of 1776 when the country didn't start until March of 1789. It isn't 100% correct but it isn't wrong to use that date.
     
  14. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    4,016
    Actually, it's more like saying the U.S. was founded in 1607 (Jamestown) or 1620 (Mayflower voyage) because at least the name "United States of America" was there in 1776.
     
  15. Perfxion

    Perfxion Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    Goldcoast, USA
    The name the United States did not come until Constitution, from 1607 through the 1770s it was just the American colonies aka the Americans.
     
  16. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    4,016
    WHAT?

    "In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
    The Unanamious Declaration of the thirteen united States of America..."

    "We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States..."

    This phrase did not originate with the Constitution.

    Also see The Articles of Confederation from 1777: http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/artconf.shtml
    "The Stile of this Confederacy shall be The United States of America."
     
  17. ZB2

    ZB2 New wave Ideology

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Messages:
    678
    Location:
    Europe
    phff, Confederate States of America has a better sound to it :p
     
  18. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    14,045
    GOD the HRE are in. DEAL WITH IT. Sick of this debating. If your that worried about it, Mod it out and at Poland or Polynesia or something. <That's what i'm doing.
     
  19. ChrTh

    ChrTh Happy Yule!

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    6,255
    Location:
    Piedmont Triad, North Carolina
    Don't forget the proliferation of critical signatures. Those need to go too. ;)
     
  20. BYC

    BYC Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2006
    Messages:
    206
    I don't mind it.

    Although it'd be ironic if the Texans start demanding their own civ :D
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page