1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The Huns

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 1, 2015.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,034
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    A. To avoid overlap with mongols
    B. Historicity. Huns = civ ‘barbarians’ which we’re not solely mounted.

    G
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Except stripping movement is a niche that everyone has. On water, where there is a bit more movement to spare.

    My 1st alternative, disabling healing, would give them that unique niche you are looking for, but I really do think that cutting down movement to 1 for all unmounted units will, if not completely unbalanced, at least make the AI's death-carpets hair-pullingly frustrating to fight.

    The AI can throw way more expendable units at you, and this would make it incredibly difficult to rotate units from the front-lines. Human players may find it too hard to conserve units if pulling them out costs an extra turn. We may have to resort to AI fodder tactics to beat Huns
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,034
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    I said land niche. Do you have a filter for the word ‘land’ ? :)

    I don’t disagree - I like the healing removal. I worry it isn’t strong enough to carry the UA.

    G
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    You could combine with the sight removal. There's other things you could do as well, like remove max hp on hit.

    I tested HP removal and it works thusly:
    If you hit someone with an HP reduction plague, it takes full damage, and the max HP is reduced by an additional 1/2 of what was removed
    • ie. If you did a -20 HP reduction plague, and hit an enemy for 20 damage, it would have 50/80 HP at the end of the turn (20 normal damage + 10 hp removal from plague)
    After the plague expires, the full amount of the HP that was taken away is restored
    • ie. that same unit would have 80/100 hp if it takes no more damage/healing, after the plague expires
     
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,868
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    You wouldn't suffer from supply if you purposefully used the worst of your captured units as cannon-fodder. Intentionally grinding units into the enemy to inflict war weariness on them (that you don't get) is a hilariously barbarian method of war.

    That said you could just make the captured units supply and/or war weariness free.

    I just don't think we need to rock the boat too much.

    I think you just don't like reducing movement as a concept! haha
     
  6. matlajs

    matlajs King

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    807
    I liked capturing. It was a way to get nice collection of UUs.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I Like the idea quite a bit. The 4UC mod has included a longsword replacement that saps 1 movement on attack for almost a year now. It was my own recommendation to make that promotion (though I didn't do the coding), but there are limits:
    • It's a unique promotion tied to a unique unit with a unique model, so a player can tell on-sight what that unit is capable of
    • It applies the -1 move sap on attack, not on aura
    • It's a unique unit, not a UA, and not an entire unit line
    I like the idea of sapping movement just fine, but I think that giving it to every unit, on auras, and consistently sapping a full half of all unit's movement is excessive. It is my opinion that movement sapping should be used sparingly, because it has enormous tactical potential, even when it's 1/4 of a unit's entire move pool.

    I will reiterate, that sapping 1 move from units on a civ-wide promotion makes +1 attack promotions like logistics and blitz absurdly risky to use against the Huns. I'm not comfortable with that.
     
    matlajs likes this.
  8. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2016
    Messages:
    471
    Location:
    Hungary, Earth, M.W. Galaxy
    As a vivid Hun player, I have to say that I absolutely love the proposed changes G! Pleeease Santa G, make it happen! :mischief:

    Although it could be that the movement debuff might be too strong, hard to tell. If a unit has 4 movement point, -1 is ok, but if they have only 2, that -1 seems to be too punishing.

    What about minus defense on the attacked unit? Or no/reduced heal? Or reduced attack? Or....
     
  9. matlajs

    matlajs King

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    807
    I almost think, that it would be better to boost a meele units movement by +1 for the next turn, rather than this vampyrism.

    +1 movement boost after hitting enemy(for 2 turns for infantry), vision on enemy unit that got hit for 2 turns. no scaling
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    7,290
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Hey! Capturing is one of the most thematic bonuses for the Huns. Also iconic.

    What really bothers the capturing thing is the supply limit. And maintenance. Thematically, the Huns are not killing the enemy units, they are convincing them. It makes sense that war weariness from fights gets lowered.

    I say let the Huns capture units at better condition (more HP or whatever) so they can be kept in the army, or sold or gifted, with fewer war weariness, that's all. Let supply limit affects the same as now. This is, Attila can start a war with fewer units just to increase his army, recover and hit again at full glory, but can't increase his army much bigger than the others. If supply were increased and money allowed, the Huns would field a huge huge army, which is not accurate. Free units are a lot of hammers saved.
    Having lower war weariness also permits to be more suicidal with your units, which is a different play style.

    I like the idea of hunnics units demoralizing the enemy. Is it possible to prevent a hit unit from attacking the next turn? Move and defense still allowed.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Another thing we played with at one point was giving Attila some sort of bonus for afraid civs, or a bonus when successfully demanding something from another civ. Maybe trigger a golden age if you manage to make a demand. This would be a reference to his bullying of eastern and western Rome, and the treaty of Margus
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,362
    Location:
    Beijing
    I personally like capturing units and I think we could just find a better way to implement it.

    Capturing a unit for clearing a barb camp works well.

    For other civs, I would make the condition taking a city gives you a free unit. If you have the tech, you get their unique unit. Also give it experience based on the era you are in. I think this gives a more easily understood source of units.
     
    ElliotS, CppMaster and matlajs like this.
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Or! The European migration period was triggered by Hunnic expansion, displacing the Alan’s and various Germanic tribes into Roman territory. This caused mass political destabilization throughout Europe. Would it be possible to reference this destabilization caused by the Huns by doubling the war weariness they inflict on other civs?
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    7,037
    I think ElliotS nailed it. Capturing has historically been a problem because it often gives you weak units that die and drive up your WW. But if the Huns don’t have thst issue then yeah...let them just throw bodies at the enemy. Who cares about the supply cap at thst point
     
    Gazebo likes this.
  15. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    816
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    If Units don't have full Movement points (2/2) or March, they are not able to Heal; also the decreased Movement may make it harder for the Enemy to move their Units to safety. Factor in +100% Flanking, and you should be able to force the Enemy back by doing more dmg than you take. Seems good to me.

    If you take away Converting Barbarians, it does make wonder how the Huns are supposed to get their early game going. Converting Enemy Units could be changed to be more consistent.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,034
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Alright, what about this.

    So either you capture them, or you 'poison' them. We keep the UA as I had it above, so there's no double-dipping versus barb camps.

    Seems fair?

    G
     
    Mauro Mezzina and Minh Le like this.
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    7,037
    Simpler feels better here. Capturing works, so just let them capture. I don't see a see to throw so many mechanics in
     
    ElliotS, matlajs and CrazyG like this.
  18. Minh Le

    Minh Le King

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2018
    Messages:
    793
    Gender:
    Male
    I think capturing unit is really fun. I would be sad if it got removed.
     
    ElliotS, CppMaster and CrazyG like this.
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Why not make Huns all about War weariness? War weariness immunity allows unit conversion and spamming to be much more viable for Huns, This also makes Huns great at inflicting war weariness on other civs, especially now that damage that civs deal negatively impacts their own happiness. And hey, destabilizing a civ with unhappiness causes barbarians to spawn in their territory, which is Hun's Jam
    So, drop the flank bonus and buff placers. Instead, make Huns focused on unit conversion tanking an enemy civ's happiness/supply. That's a totally new niche that wouldn't step on any other warmonger's toes:

    - Unique combat bonuses and promotions are used for Mongols/Zulu/Sweden/Songhai/Iroquois/Japan/Denmark
    - Yields on conquest/kills are used for Assyria/Aztec/Denmark/Greece/Rome

    I think people are generally a fan of keeping the unit conversion around anyways, and it would stack really well with an ability to capitalize on weariness. I think there's the added benefit of more historicity as well. The Huns are all about destabilizing entire empires and getting them to capitulate. That would recall the chaos of the migration period, which precipitated the fall of Western Rome.
     
    ElliotS and tu_79 like this.
  20. matlajs

    matlajs King

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    807
    This would be a good idea in a case, if Afraid'' status persist in its, lets say very accesible state.

    But anyway, i really like CrazyGs proposition. It feels a bit like a unit counterpart of Romes UA.

    Please, just don't suck a MP from enemy. That may work with ships, where they have base movement of mounted.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018

Share This Page