The Huns

You're right, ElliotS, I temporarily indulged myself, but I can see that leads to cluttering this Huns thread.

To get back on track -> Elliot, would you make any changes to the Huns, and if yes, what kind?

I can actually agree the Huns are problematic (not because of the sample game given, just because capturing almost every enemy unit is way too strong)

You could make it a % chance, but that has two issues. Even at 50% it would be really strong, but at lower amounts its so random it could be frustrating (maybe not though)

I don't like a % chance to capture, really messes up combat math. If we're to do away with the capture mechanic, I like the idea of Luka's UA. Here's my take:

"Gain a random of-era UU whenever you clear a barbarian encampment, capture a city or finish razing a city. Each pop burned when razing a city grants +30:c5culture:/:c5gold:, scaling with era." (Maybe restrict it to each pop level so you can't stop razing at 1 and repeat at 1 for a culture/gold farm. I don't think it would be worth it with science/culture scaler mechanic though.)

I know it's new code and therefore @Gazebo will probably shoot it down, but the current mechanic would be super unfun at anything other than 100%.

The potential easier to code solution would be to make captured units start at 1 hp and/or require more strict conditions. (Killed by ranged while flanked by horsemen or flanked by 2 or more horse units.)

I personally haven't played Huns in a while, so my feelings aren't very strong other than that a non-100% chance is really unfun and annoyingly hard to plan around. Even moreso in a game not designed for it like civ, compared to one like XCom where the whole point is to mitigate 'bad luck'.
 
Isn't he on a different continent than you in that screen shot?
There were two games actually. On screenshot is the game when I'm on flat island without any defensive features and barely any production tiles as Arabia and he is on another island as Huns. His island has lots of production, defensive features (actually it was completely unassailable even if I attempted to), and he had Cultural city state 5 tiles from capital which helped him get earlier worker by policy and then gave him quest to build ONE granary, after which allied him. His production skyrocjeted his early expansion and infrastructure and that made everything else skyrocket too. While I was spending last gold to buy forest tile to have AT LEAST SOME production in capital..
Yes my island was better long-term but it required time which I didn't have.
Both islands were one continent, just separated by coast. So he invaded without problems right before I finished some triremas to defend. And it was over.
And in the other game I got Huns. My continent contained 2 other players and 4 AIs. It was raining blood non-stop on this continent. L29Ah was placed with 1 AI on separate continent, completely unreachable until Astronomy, and his score skyrocketed and nobody could do anything about it. He even didn't need to think of defence.
So in both games he was ridiculously lucky and I was ridiculously unlucky. And such games occur most of time.
 
The potential easier to code solution would be to make captured units start at 1 hp and/or require more strict conditions. (Killed by ranged while flanked by horsemen or flanked by 2 or more horse units.)

I personally haven't played Huns in a while, so my feelings aren't very strong other than that a non-100% chance is really unfun and annoyingly hard to plan around. Even moreso in a game not designed for it like civ, compared to one like XCom where the whole point is to mitigate 'bad luck'.
More strict requirement are harsh on AI

Captured units having full health is fairly stupid and a really powerful component of it, lowering the health is a decent start.

Random of-era UU sounds broken to me, I make the classical era my 6th tech and I have a chance to get berserkers.

Culture for razing is okay, but you end up being an earlier france (its new code, but yields for razing sounds simple, I think other mods have it)
 
Random of-era UU sounds broken to me, I make the classical era my 6th tech and I have a chance to get berserkers.
Maybe it would make sense to have it as Random of-era or era-before UU to dilute the odds?

Also maybe start them at either 1 or 50 HP so you need to heal them first and make them a bit less potent.

I think this would be the most fun UA in the game if done this way, but G will probably nope if for the code requirement. (Understandably, but it's worth offering.)
 
Maybe it would make sense to have it as Random of-era or era-before UU to dilute the odds?

Also maybe start them at either 1 or 50 HP so you need to heal them first and make them a bit less potent.

I think this would be the most fun UA in the game if done this way, but G will probably nope if for the code requirement. (Understandably, but it's worth offering.)

Having coerced units start at 50 HP makes sense. No new code! ;)
 
Isn't your start is really good in that screen shot? .(pearls are amazing in this mod)
Yeah, but not in early game. I did monopoly on them, yes, this helped me get religion and I choose production-per-population perk which finally resolved production problem. But one turn later elephants came and it was over, so this religion is now L29Ah's.

Are you settling your capital well?
What? First 30 turns I was building one settler while saving gold to purchase one forest tile.

You had a lowish hammer start, how did you address that?
Ok, first of all I had NO IDEA there's L29Ah with Huns race near me. I saw tons of food potential, so my plan was to get population boom at many cities, rush religion and get production-per-population, culture-per-population and science-per-population perks, then everything would skyrocket insanely. I scouted entire island and found nobody, I saw other island across the water but I had no idea there was anybody there, until I research fishing and was able to embark my scout. By that time I already had lots of farms, I worked production tiles too btw, just not horses because I didn't have Animal Husbandry yet. And I couldn't buy much tiles because I needed gold to invest in shrines to hurry religion. I also had Faith natural wonder and pearls so rushing religion was even more viable. When I found L29Ah he was already high in production ( and probably starting building invasion force right away ). I kept track of his Horses to detect if he starts building Horsemen, he built one but also secretly built elephants ( I haven't found his Elephants resource yet by that time so had no idea ). Ok so I was low in production, but high in food, population, culture ( from Pantheon ) and gold and was nearing to founding religion. I decided to rush Sailing to be able to put triremes between our islands so his land units could not cross. Ok, I almost succeeded, but he came 5 turns earlier. What else could I do? Pump land units? Against Huns? On open flat continent without mountains or hills? Really? Haha, nice one. Triremes was my only chance.

Are you playing into your civs
What?

What is your pantheon? Were their better choices available?
I took pantheon '1 culture per 2 worked plains or grasslands without features', because I had TONS of such tiles. Then I founded religion and took '1 production per 2 citizens' perk. Really helped with production but was too late. Now he has this religion most likely. And that perfect island for long-term advancement, and cool pantheon. Starting conditions were EXTREMELY convenient to him - quickly bump production on production-rich islands, grab horses and elephants and rush nearby island that had no production but huge long-term potential. And then live on both islands like a God, because there's nobody else but 2 city states on this continent.
I'm not sure if better starting conditions are possible at all for Huns.

Did you read the rest of the post
Yep.

He's not worth talking to
Can you stop insulting me? That's all that you do. No arguments, no proofs, just insults and repeating same 'luck does not exist it's all your fault' mantras over and over, ignoring everything I say.

Having coerced units start at 50 HP makes sense.
Nope. 20 HP would make maybe. 50 HP Horsemen are extremely strong, especially when flanking.

And that's his island in that game, it's just PERFECT for early production and rush:
 
Yeah, but not in early game. I did monopoly on them, yes, this helped me get religion and I choose production-per-population perk which finally resolved production problem. But one turn later elephants came and it was over, so this religion is now L29Ah's.


What? First 30 turns I was building one settler while saving gold to purchase one forest tile.


Ok, first of all I had NO IDEA there's L29Ah with Huns race near me. I saw tons of food potential, so my plan was to get population boom at many cities, rush religion and get production-per-population, culture-per-population and science-per-population perks, then everything would skyrocket insanely. I scouted entire island and found nobody, I saw other island across the water but I had no idea there was anybody there, until I research fishing and was able to embark my scout. By that time I already had lots of farms, I worked production tiles too btw, just not horses because I didn't have Animal Husbandry yet. And I couldn't buy much tiles because I needed gold to invest in shrines to hurry religion. I also had Faith natural wonder and pearls so rushing religion was even more viable. When I found L29Ah he was already high in production ( and probably starting building invasion force right away ). I kept track of his Horses to detect if he starts building Horsemen, he built one but also secretly built elephants ( I haven't found his Elephants resource yet by that time so had no idea ). Ok so I was low in production, but high in food, population, culture ( from Pantheon ) and gold and was nearing to founding religion. I decided to rush Sailing to be able to put triremes between our islands so his land units could not cross. Ok, I almost succeeded, but he came 5 turns earlier. What else could I do? Pump land units? Against Huns? On open flat continent without mountains or hills? Really? Haha, nice one. Triremes was my only chance.


What?


I took pantheon '1 culture per 2 worked plains or grasslands without features', because I had TONS of such tiles. Then I founded religion and took '1 production per 2 citizens' perk. Really helped with production but was too late. Now he has this religion most likely. And that perfect island for long-term advancement, and cool pantheon. Starting conditions were EXTREMELY convenient to him - quickly bump production on production-rich islands, grab horses and elephants and rush nearby island that had no production but huge long-term potential. And then live on both islands like a God, because there's nobody else but 2 city states on this continent.
I'm not sure if better starting conditions are possible at all for Huns.


Yep.


Can you stop insulting me? That's all that you do. No arguments, no proofs, just insults and repeating same 'luck does not exist it's all your fault' mantras over and over, ignoring everything I say.


Nope. 20 HP would make maybe. 50 HP Horsemen are extremely strong, especially when flanking.

And that's his island in that game, it's just PERFECT for early production and rush:

This was such a bad pantheon choice and a terrible long term strategy. You cannot wait until your religion to get production, it comes way too late. There is no valid reasoning for making those farms.

How about you respond to the suggestions to alter your multiplayer settings, the same settings that get recommended everytime you troll and distract this forum with your most recent loss?
 
Each pop burned when razing a city grants +30:c5culture:/:c5gold:, scaling with era."
lol.
If this got implemented I would be so flippin’ cross with you, @ElliotS. That’s lifted from the 4UC unit we are doing for the Huns.

It would be nice to have our ideas be given a wider audience, but I’d be back to square 1 for the Tarkhan :trouble:

Honestly, I agree with G here. The Huns are fun and the unit capture is great. May adjusting the HP of the converted unit is all that is needed. The conversion with a specific (melee) unit class takes at least a little skill to pull off, and the AI doesn’t know to prioritize killing with mounted. If starting HP is kept at 30-50 for converted units you get to retain the utility of this UA for barb hunting, but it is significantly less useful in the middle of pitched wars with other civs.
 
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How about you respond to the suggestions to alter your multiplayer settings
Because it's always easier to "suggest" based on already known history of game AFTER game was played than to apply right decisions DURING game ( when you don't even know who is near ).
Ok so what should I have done? How would I get production from grassland and plains? Plz tell.

You cannot wait until your religion to get production, it comes way too late
So basically I should have sacrificed my chance to found religion just to get some 3-5 additional production early on? WOW. Such strategy.
 
Because it's always easier to "suggest" based on already known history of game AFTER game was played than to apply right decisions DURING game ( when you don't even know who is near ).
Ok so what should I have done? How would I get production from grassland and plains? Plz tell.
Take god of the sea and rush work boats. Your pearls earn 2 hammers each after that. You already have plenty of culture because your pearls provide culture, the 1 culture per 2 grasslands isn't very good for this terrain (because you aren't working empty grasslands, you are working fishing boats). You cannot win the game working those blank grasslands, you have to work resource tiles early on. This pantheon is good when you get luxuries that appeared on plains or grasslands that qualify, or with certain civs (like Shoshone) who can build their unique improvement on tiles that qualify for the culture.

My tech order is probably trapping-fishing-pottery-mining. I would take progress to help the early science. When I get my free worker, I build a mine on that hill (a 3 hammer tile will help a lot with your settlers). Mining also unlocks the well, which will help.

Then I rush out 2 or 3 settlers, enough to get the monopoly, which will get me a religion. Production per followers is a good choice (its just not enough by itself), I'd think about council of elders too.

Don't spend your gold to purchase a forest tile (it doesn't fix the problem), use if for work boats or to purchase pearl tiles. You can also think about tradition (because it has great synergy with Arabia), but if you don't like that tree its fine, go progress. I wouldn't take authority here, not enough land to fight barbarians on. Take progress, take the free worker next, then the 2 hammers/gold per city. For singelplayer, I would go towards lighthouses early, they connect cities and when you get your 4th policy connectiosn earn 3 science each. For multiplayer its really greedy though, military theory and spearmen are important so you don't get rushed.

With all that said, maybe you would have still lost the hunnic elephants. I haven't agreed before, but I do agree with you on this issue, the Huns are crazy strong and when I played multiplayer we banned them. I really recommend using a draft system (each player gets three randomly chosen civs and chooses one. Each players get to ban one civ, which isn't in the random pool). Whats great about this system is you don't have to convince the world that Sweden is OP, its your ban, the other players get no say in the matter. This isn't some hindsight suggestion, I used it for dozens of civ multiplayer games, it alleviates problems of randomness while keeping enough to have variety.
 
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captured units start at 50 hp, coerced barbarian units you get from a camp starts at full hp

fun fact: coerced "barbarian" units are counted as a "unique", so a horseman (15CS) and barbarian horseman (14CS) will create a duplicate of each when terracotta army is built.

I think the huns UA is super op on human hands and scales all the way to late game very very well. Complaints on the % chances needs to address the fact that the chances get higher by the combat strength difference up to 80% - which is honestly not hard to constantly reach with how many crap units ai likes to send out. I am a big Xcom fan btw

To keep to the discussion on nerfs of the huns, there was a rather recent indirect nerf that Gazebo put out that stopped unit gifting injured units. So now, more likely then not, captures are meant for baiting the enemy to kill themselves rather that an influence farm. I often try to secure and keep UU or seige units, but it is actually hard to be able to do.

I've been thinking lately and is it possible to only allow capturing with melee and gunpowder units instead of horse and armored units? I know this is a bit out of theme with the huns, but right now the horse and armored units innate combat strength steroid is just ramping the capture chances way too high and are just too strong with such an ability. If there was more focus on trying to get slow melee units to be able capture, I think that would be a lot more of a unique challenge and would make infantry units actually have a place than as fodder. How is this as a proposal? Lowering the hp of captured units is an option, I guess. Although, I find that more of an annoyance than a solution
 
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How about we make different topic for whining (let's call it nj666 photojournal), as it's not about the Huns, but his lack of skills and crazy theories.
I'm really tired of zealots shouting their asses off about how luck does not exist, and yet not providing ANY evidence.
I'm really tired of people, who claim invisible fairies who give Moderator Action: <SNIP> does not exist, and yet not providing ANY evidence.

Moderator Action: If you have a problem with another member, please report the post and tell us what the problem is. It does no good to troll, just takes the thread off topic and leads to greater issues. Please do not use inappropriate language. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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CrazyG : the truth is we can argue forever what should have been done, but we are not 100% accurate civ5 emulators so none of our theoretical strategies are guaranteed to work anyway. I see no point arguing further, it's a waste of time. Every game is unique so whatever advices I read here won't be applicable anyway.

Moderator Action: If you ask for advice, either use it or ignore it but do not argue with those kind enough to try to help you. You are being uncivil and combative and that is considered trolling. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

How about we make different topic for whining
Where exactly did you see whining? I just explained why I lost ( because some people asked ).

I'm really tired of people, who claim invisible fairies who give bl*wjobs does not exist, and yet not providing ANY evidence.
Yeah well you're certainly great at providing arbitrary analogues, but what are you trying to prove by it?
 
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