The ICS Experiment w/4 Civs

[Hammer Rabbi]

This is a continuation of this discussion but with map goodness. I finally made 2 maps now that the patch/hotfix is out, one for Emperor and Immortal each and 2 civs on each one as follows:

Emperor - Egypt and France
Immortal - Arabia and Maya

Both maps are on pangea, standard settings, and have NO RUINS. Some people wanted them and some didnt. I came to the conclusion to leave them out. I prefer them myself but it can keep things 'equal' and you dont have to plan build orders or scouting choices based on them. All VCs are enabled and Domination is assumed but not necessary. In fact, I'd love to see some non-Dom VCs get some credit.

I dont have any actual minimums on what ICS is but less than 15 settled cities (plus whatever puppets) isn't really ICS in my book. You are welcome to disagree and play the maps however you see fit but I'd like the discussion to be about your ICS effort and path to victory. This isnt a competition but just a way for everyone to compare their experiences on the same map with the same Civs.

The only DLCs in this are Inca/Spain and Wonders of the Ancient World and of course Gods and Kinds. If i somehow messed it up, let me know so i can upload a corrected save. I used WorldBuilder for these and have been known to have some mistakes with it.

**Also, map knowledge is a given on this, so spoilers arent really necessary other than to make giants walls of text smaller or pictures less huge. Game info wont really ruin anything for anyone.

P.S. - I'm not gonna lie, the Immortal map is pretty dang hard for me. I had my best run with Maya and still had a very tough time with it.

Emperor
View attachment ICS_France_Emperor_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save
View attachment ICS_Egypt_Emperor_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save

Immortal
View attachment ICS_Arabia_Immortal_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save
View attachment ICS_Maya_Immortal_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save

Enjoy and I hope you have fun creating your giant suburban nightmare, haha!

 

[Browd]

<sigh> I'm never going to get any actual (real life) work done, am I?

Just ... one ... more ... turn....

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i had to get some things done today, haha. bought and assembles a new desk chair and got some paperwork clutter taken care of. i knew the next couple days wouldnt be too fruitful.

 

[chazzycat]

i played the first 170 turns of the France map.

Spoiler :

Since I was France I figured I would try to make the most of good culture with my wide empire, heading first for representation. Built scout first because I forgot ruins were turned off..d'oh. Grew my capital up a bit before I started cranking settlers. Built one before collective rule, bought one, and built a whole bunch after. There wasn't that much room before I ran into the Chinese, who sealed their fate by settling right next to me.

Since the point is to settle a lot of cities and I could see the land on the other side of China...I knew I had to take out Wu. So I headed towards construction and built a bunch of archers. Sold luxes & horses to upgrade I think 7 to CBs. Their first city was taken easily, but Beijing was very costly. I had to stop conquering for a while, but that was fine since I was about to lay down several more cities and didn't have that much happiness.

The war definitely slowed down expansion, but I quickly ballooned up to 12 cities after the war, counting the 2 Chinese puppets. Around the time I laid down city 12, Ethiopia DOW'd me and took it, but I took it back a bit later and proceeded to puppet the rest of their cities as well, each with a unique lux (with xbows this time).

The game is looking solidly won at this point, I just got protectionism, lux #16, and Notre Dame around the same time so I have a massive happiness surplus now. I'm not sure yet whether to just grow my 15 cities up and coast to science or diplo VC, or keep conquering. Either way I should be fine to win, since I'm already #1 in most demographics and am about to enter a long period of growth.

religion has played a pretty big role. Since I got the 8 faith for the nearby CS, I went shrine ASAP and got first pantheon. Took goddess of the festival since there was so much incense & wine nearby. With 3 incense in the cap and 2 in my second city, I got first religion around turn 75. Judaism was enhanced the very next turn with the liberty finisher. My beliefs were tithe, pagodas, monasteries and itinerant preachers. My religion is dominating the world with 37 cities; no competing religions have more than 2.

only problem I guess, is I'm at 10 settled cities and 5 puppets...at this point it's pretty doubtful I will make it to 15 settled cities. I could probably fit a couple more in my area but they would be so crappy, I don't see the point in killing my policy costs, which are holding up pretty well still.

 

[ilyanna]

Played the first 112 turns (seems like a good time for a screenshot ) of the Mayan game. fairly peaceful until the last like 5 turns, when Siam decided he didn't like me. My usual awful scouting has forced me into a corner however, which I'm gonna regret in the long run. Got me 6 decent cities, and a MotG, CB, Pagoda religion. At -1 happy, but haven't finished Liberty yet (1 policy off, and its Meritocracy, so loads of happiness incoming). Got a bunch of comp bows, soon to be xbows, when cash allows.

Got my long count running a little late, only had one gp so far, and I took the engineer for a free Machu Pichu (which was one-turned in the northern city, so its not visible)

I might push into Siam after I repel this attack, either that, or I'll expand to the north, theres lots of sexy luxes up there.

 

[budweiser]

I will try Arabia tonight, then an emperor map after I get beat.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

@chazzy:

Spoiler :

im at t100 in my france game and i have 6 cities and easily room for another 6 with the coasts--i have one already east of me on the river to get the whales. im about to take beijing and can put some north of it. many of my cities wont be over 4 pop and only gold/market machines. i have 6-8 core productions cities for units but the rest will be gpt spots. regarding policy costs, knowing this is ICS i have no expectations to finish 2 whole trees. i do finish Liberty by the time i have my 6 cities up (usually around t100) but after that i dip into Honor for the GG/xp and either the rest of the Honor tree if Order/Autocracy might come too late to be necessary or 1-2 policies into order/auto. by then the game will be close to being over. im learning its hard to let go of certain policy expectations in ICS but i find it interesting as a mechanic to not rely on many SPs.

i missed pagodas by 3 turns (damn you Ethiopia) but i got mosques for the extra faith to make the others come faster. i also took +1f/+1c from incense and wine since i'll take all the area around me with about 10 of those available. i thought about MotG as well as DF. i was 2nd to pantheons so the only one i couldnt take was the bonus pastures which i actually didnt want with all the sheep/horses around.

strat wise, i plan on saving Sweden for last unless Hiawatha takes him out (or he has good wonders i want), but after China im gonna prolly have to tackle Hiawatha anyway. He is already leader with 6 cities like mine and is spreading a little more aggressively than me. After that the others should be easier.

 

[chazzycat]

I actually think France is one civ where you can still have semi-decent policy costs in an ICS. It pays off to get to protectionism somewhat quickly, since when you ICS you get a lot of luxes and happiness can be an issue. you just have to not completely ignore culture, build a few monuments, etc. My policies are coming about every 18 turns or so, not too bad.

 

[chazzycat]

diplo win, turn 285.

ended up with 12 settled cities, 4 annexed, and 1 puppet.

Decided to stop conquering after Ethiopia, as the other powers were somehow still friendly with me and traded at full price. I think maybe some of them did not meet China. Avoided DOWs for the rest of the game. I just grew my cities and built up a huge economy. Science eventually got up to around 1800 bpt, gold around 500 (900 in GA), 300 culture and 160 faith (130 after switching from piety to rationalism). Allied all the CS on the map as soon as I found them.

policywise, after protectionism I took the first two in patronage waiting for the industrial age, then opened order. After that my last 3 policies were all big science boosters - planned economy, scholasticism (had every CS by that time), rationalism opener. I bought 3 scientists with faith right at the end for the last few techs and had an engineer from order to build the UN.

overall it was a pretty fun game but not super challenging, and I could have used a little more 'lebensraum' to get more of an ICS feel. I'll try the Maya one next.

 

[budweiser]

Taking a break. It seems too easy. Arabia t152, 10 cities total. Washinton and Rammy defeated. I am rush buy camels with all my crazy gold. I have 7 or 8 camels and AI city defense value cannot cope.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

wow, nice that its so easy right now. i got overwhelmed by america in 1 of my tries with arabia but i teched to chivalry way too slow. lost focus and settled too many cites for bad happiness and missed my desired religions pieces. siam was a pushover and only settled 2 cities. america took out boudicca too.

how many settled cities? 10 total mean w/puppets?

 

[budweiser]

how many settled cities? 10 total mean w/puppets?

6 right now, 4 puppets. I am adding my own cities as happiness allows. There is plenty of space. I basically control everything east of Washington.

This is why I think Arabia is best, they can actually attack better than the others.

 

[RedRover57]

This looks interesting. I'll probably give it a try with Arabia, but will stick to a more strict definition of ICS, namely:

1. Keep to a strict grid pattern with minimal distance (3 tiles) between cities unless impeded by a natural blockade, etc. In other words, no cherry picking of city sites unless they fall on the grid.

2. Continue to settle cities until all of the available land is filled. Conquer neighbors as needed to clear land for settling.

3. Raze captured cities unless they adhere to the grid (or are a capital).

 

[chazzycat]

I like the immortal map a lot better...the Mayans are such a beast. The AI weren't blocking my path to the land, so I just settled and skipped the warfare. I'm at 19 cities right now at turn 147, zero puppets.

 

[budweiser]

I also prefer the Immortal map.

I totally missed the religious CS on the French map and had to get my religion the hard way. I missed the first religion by about 3 turns because of this. I also expanded to 5 cities without war. China remains OCC after almost 100 turns but I am not keen on attacking that city.

I am having a hard time balancing expansion with my inner desire to build the NC, and in each game, I am trying to build the &#8216;engine&#8217; that lets you keep adding cities, but not lose happiness. I noticed as Arabia, my religion spread faster than on my French game and I think its because my cities were smaller and closer to my cap. After a few turns, they just converted by themselves. I think this is important and I will try and recreate this effect in later games.

 

[The Pilgrim]

<sigh> I'm never going to get any actual (real life) work done, am I?

Nope. Work is for weak sad little people who don't have a life. We, on the other hand... Gosh, I've done literally nothing useful in last couple of weeks.


My main question would be, obviously, at what point to build libraries and NC? I can see Maya getting away with delaying them for a while, but not the rest of the bunch.

 

[Browd]

My main question would be, obviously, at what point to build libraries and NC? I can see Maya getting away with delaying them for a while, but not the rest of the bunch.

I haven't started this challenge yet, but I think this is the hardest question about ICS-style play. I always find excuses to delay pumping out my first settlers (usually to get my capital up to population X -- pick an X -- any X, or to get NC done before expanding), but once I do start churning out settlers before building the NC, there's no logical time to pause. Even modest unhappiness is not a reason to pause -- in fact, that's probably the best time to churn out a few more, since your capital won't be growing all that quickly anyway. End result is a conveyor belt of settlers, with no time to stop to build or buy libraries to make NC buildable.

So, for the NC, I'm left with the punchline to the old joke: "No, next week won't work for me. How about never? Does never work for you?" And, I'm not sure it matters all that much, if you have 15 or more 4- or 5-pop cities and your capital is down at 7 or 8 pop.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Oh well, lets experiment.

 

[Browd]

Yep. I think that's one of the main educational benefits of a challenge like this.

 

[budweiser]

Once you get a huge number of cities rolling, the Nationals take so many turns and so many hammers to put up that I feel a GE is warranted to pop them. And yeah, if you are steaming along planting cites, you really dont need the nationals that much.