1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The idiot's guide to 20k

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by sanabas, Mar 10, 2006.

  1. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,269
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Step 1: find a city location that is coastal, with 6 cows and reasonable shields.



    Step 2: Build stuff.

    That game turned into a deity OCC, which I will write up properly later.

    The rest of this thread will be a proper guide to winning via 20k on standard and bigger maps, anywhere up to demigod. It can work on higher levels, it just requires a bit more luck and more effort.

    Settings: 70/80% archipelago, warm, wet, 3 million, no barbs, min aggression

    Civ: Pick your favourite seafaring civ. Either Byzantines for the cheap buildings, the free tech, and the SGL chance, or Spain for the cheap buildings & minimal anarchy. Spain has better starting techs, as the AI will almost always get Bronze working for you, Spain's disadvantage is that this method almost guarantees a despotic GA.

    Opposition: Minimum civs. Definitely nobody with Alphabet, my preference is lots of EXP civs, no SCI civs, and no REL civs, to ensure CB can be traded, and so hopefully you can build Oracle. On a large map, that usually means Zulu, Mongols, America, China, Aztec, Inca. My inability to remember who is who often results in Arabs replacing the Inca, as they're both pink.

    Start required: Fresh water, at least one food bonus, reasonable production at size 12.

    Research: min on writing, max on Philo, then either Monarchy, Republic or Literature as the freebie, depending on what you can trade for.

    Build order: Curragh, worker x 2 or 3, barracks that will be changed to colossus.

    MMing: max growth. Irrigate the food bonuses, hopefully reach +5 food.

    Explore with the curragh, if you only find 1 AI by the time the barracks is about to finish, you'll need to give up 100 or so gold or alphabet to get bronze working. Find 2, and CB will be enough on its own. Find none, and you'll have to start again. Switch build to colossus.


    After the colossus: At least 1 settler, possibly temple & 1 or 2 warriors, possibly another curragh. Remember that any food in the box when you build a settler at size 7 or 8 will disappear, and try to avoid it. That settler will crank out workers & warriors for MP in the capital.

    After the capital builds the settler, you should be able to trade for Masonry, so start on the Pyramids. Get the capital to size 12, on all improved tiles ASAP, by joining workers. If Mysticism appears, trade for it, switch the build to Oracle instead of Pyramids. You should get one of the 2, which will trigger a despotic GA.

    Concentrate on researching for wonders, keep your capital building culture, and your 2nd city on settlers, etc, to expand to fill your island. You'll be vulnerable to attack once Map Making appears, if you're worried about your ability to defend, get a psuedo war happening. Declare on a more distant neighbour, get your closest neighbor and biggest threat allied in with you, and it should be all good.

    Once you're into the MA, I usually beeline for Education, then either Music Theory or Astronomy, followed by a beeline for Shakespeare's. Assuming your military looks better, a psuedo war should hopefully result in a steady stream of landings to leader fish on in order to get heroic epic.

    Other tricky bits: S o Zeus, at 4cpt for 200 shields is very nice to get. Often, you can get it even if you don't have ivory. Build Great Lighthouse, to trade over sea, and hopefully trade for Ivory from somebody without maths, but with harbours.

    By the early MA you should have guaranteed a win, and be simply improving your date, and avoiding losses via 100k, conquest or UN.

    I'll post an actual game with some pictures later, but my last few games are still saved, all using this method, so they make a decent guide for approximate dates, as given by CA2.

    Game 1: Standard, Deity, Spain (the 6 cow game above)
    Palace: 3900 BC
    Colossus: 2270BC
    Oracle: 1675BC
    Pyramids: 1325BC
    Mausoleum: 1125BC
    G Light: 825 BC
    Temple: 775 BC
    Library: 690 Bc
    G Library: 290 BC
    Hanging Gardens: 50 BC Win date at this point: 1938 AD
    Eventual date: 1670

    Game 2: Large Deity, Spain (1 cow, no other food bonus)
    Palace: 4000BC
    Colossus: 2030 BC
    Temple: 1790BC
    Pyramids: 1750BC (Changed plan due to an SGL)
    Oracle: 1400BC
    Mausoleum: 1175BC
    G Light: 775BC
    S o Zeus: 510BC
    Library: 470 BC
    G Wall: 190BC
    Colosseum: 170BC Win date at this point: 1958
    Eventual date: 1655

    Game 3: Large, DG, Spain (4 cow, low shield)
    Palace: 4000BC
    Temple: 3150BC - There must have been a reason to do this. I suspect it involved chopping a couple of forests, and getting a settler out first as there was a site for a second city to use irrigated cows to crank out workers. Not sure though.
    Colossus: 2150BC
    Pyramids: 1450BC
    Oracle: 1150BC
    Mausoleum: 950BC
    G Lib: 925BC (love those SGLs)
    Library: 825BC
    G Light: 510BC
    S o Zeus: 310BC
    Hanging Gardens: 30BC Date at this point: 1854
    Eventual date: 1610

    Game 4: Large, sid, spain (2 cows, 2 mountains)
    Palace: 4000Bc
    Oracle: 1990BC - missed colossus by a turn or 2, super quick tech pace meant I could trade for mysticism.
    Temple: 1910BC
    Pyramids: 1750BC (Writing SGL. :D)
    G Light: 1150BC
    H Gard: 875 BC
    Colosseum: 750BC
    Library: 570BC
    G Lib: 250BC Date at this point: 1971
    Eventual date: 1792. The Zulu were going to win this game via 100k, they were about 1500 culture below doubling the americans, and gaining at 100 per turn. Slowing them down was going to be very tough, so around 1610 or so, I decided to speed the americans up instead. I gifted them all my cities except the capital, and it worked. Finished the game with the americans on 87k, Zulu on 168.5k. I was very happy with that bright idea.
     
  2. archphoenix

    archphoenix Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    355
    great jobs, culture king sanabas.

    I have met a 7 cow map too, but It's on American's island
    faraway.
     
  3. Sima Qian

    Sima Qian 太史令

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    730
    You've got to be kidding! How many rolls did it take to find a start like this?
     
  4. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    I know at regent, you don't need to do this - you can just out research the AI - if you get a little lucky with SGL's, you can fairly easily build most if not all of the AA wonders - at least those with culture 4 or more - and pretty much all the MA wonders except Leo's and Sun tzu. I would think that this is the only way to do it at deity - if you have have a pangea, the AI trading and build rate will make it impossible to get more than 1 or 2 AA wonders without a bunch of SGLs

    I'm not sure what level you have to switch, though - Monarch? Emperor, perhaps - you have to spend more money on happiness and so you can't leave the AI in the dust as easily.

    I think the optimal strategy on Regent or lower is straight out research, and a fair amount of war to get heroic epic and other small wonders from leaders, in a pangea world with a lot of land and a lot of civs.
     
  5. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,269
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Depends on your level of play. The above was written less for a specific level, and more for winning via 20k at a level you tend to struggle at. I agree, on Emperor and below, I find a pangaea faster, as out researching the AI, and getting a decent number of AA wonders is easy. On deity & sid, I use arch as pangaea can cost you a lot of wonders via massive cascades. DG is in the middle somewhere.

    But if regent is the highest level your comfortable beating, this method should give you a win on monarch & emperor.

    Hardly any, I just fluked a good one.
     
  6. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    15,825
    Location:
    Düsseldorf, ->Germany, E.U.
    I think there's a utility to generate good start locs you could use.

    @Sanabas: You were lucky with that start! :eek: Especially if you got it from the first try.
     
  7. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    There is indeed. It's called MapFinder. It doesnt' actually generate the starts, btw - what it does is automatically evaluate a start, based on criteria you give it, and decide whether to save it as a potential. It's a lot less work than doing it manually ;) It's in the utility section.
     
  8. Karl_t_great

    Karl_t_great Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Messages:
    89
    Sanabas, I been trying Your recipie, but cannot get it to bake. I tried huge chief as bys, but it seems impossible to get below 1600 AD.

    Since the AI was no help I switched to republic before launcing GA (doing writing-law-philo). Making early contact also fails more often on huge, and I end up building currah instead of culture. I think that I fail in the early stages but I am not sure. Could You post some milestones for 1000 BC or 10 BC ?

    Should I switch civ or maptype ?

    Or am I missing something else (besides some dairy) ?
     
  9. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    It might be tough to get below 1600 on a huge chieftain map, actually. I would definitely try it as a pangea, though.

    Why would it be hard on chieftain? Tech pace will be *very* slow - huge maps take longer to research and the AI isn't doing any research for you.

    Also, it's tough to get MGL's on chieftain, because the AI doesn't produce that many units, so you can't get elite wins.

    bear in mind: 1600 on a huge chieftain would give you the 2nd best date in the HOF!! sanabas himself got a 1595, so you are doing ok at 1600...

    I expect that 20K dates will tend to be best on regent, because the AI is good enough to give you a good battle and chance for MGL's to rush heroic epic, etc, but not so good that it can take any of the Middle ages wonders.
     
  10. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,269
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Change difficulty maybe. On chieftain you need to research everything yourself, so you'll start off only being able to build colossus. You need to meet an industrious civ, or research masonry or mysticism yourself from the very start, otherwise you'll quickly run out of wonders. This guide is more about beating a level you might be uncomfortable with, rather than going super-quick on an easy level.

    As for milestones, the ones I have are listed above, with all culture builds up to 10BC for a few games. I might play a chieftain one tonight though, using this method, and see how I go.

    I think 1595 is actually a pretty weak date, the huge games on the next few levels as the Arabs are consistently in the late 1400s. The 1470 game didn't have a single SGL. Those games were mostly non-coastal though, so the production base & build speed is a lot quicker post-shakespeare's theater.
     
  11. Karl_t_great

    Karl_t_great Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Messages:
    89
    I'll propably try ATM:s advice and move to panagea or continets. That will also give me access to more lux, which was another problem with my attempts.
    Besides I needed a break in my sid diplo attempts.

    My quick trend analysis on top games in each category indicate that 1500 AD date should be achievable. It'll only take some luck and iterations....



    BTW notice that linear estimates for tiny - std follow one pattern and lg-hg another -- coincidental ??
     
  12. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,269
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    :D Yeah, coming back to chieftain from Sid attempts makes for a slightly different game. I haven't noticed luxes other than Ivory making much difference for low difficulty 20k games.

    Definitely. Although I don't think it will be easy using the above method. It shouldn't be too tough using pangaea. I've started a game using the above, I'm at 1000AD with CA2 giving a current date of 1665, I still have Sistine's and Bach's to come, so I'll finish somewhere in the late 1500's I think. That's with a below average start (1 cow only), average production (74 or 78 spt with full RR, factory, coal plant & shake's), and below average SGL luck. (only 1 so far, for Literature)

    Yeah, I think so. Linear's not the best model, below about monarch map size and difficulty don't have a big effect, SGL luck does. Weak dates are skewing the data too, on the larger maps, some of the weaker dates are easier difficulties, on the smaller maps, it's Sid & Deity that are lagging behind.
     
  13. archphoenix

    archphoenix Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    355
    how about a tiny chief 20k guide to meet a fastest 20k.
     
  14. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,269
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Not much to write in a guide like that. Research will far outstrip build speed, so there's really only 4 factors determining finish date: 1) The start, getting up to 12 fully improved (minus RR) tiles ASAP. 2: Getting to shakespeare's & RR ASAP, for up to 20 fully improved tiles to work. 3: Start location. 25 shields or 30 shields at size 12 is a big increase in build speed. So is 80 shields vs 100 shields at full size. 4: Number & timing of SGLs. This is the biggest influence on a really quick finish, this is the one you can't really improve with skill. With no SGLs, my best is 1470 (on a large/huge chief/warlord I think), 1400 is probably the quickest you could expect, even with a really good start. 4 AA SGLs, and you'll be better than 1300 and a super-quick finish.

    Anyone trying out this thread's suggestions for this month's gauntlet?
     
  15. bluejay

    bluejay Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    143
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Maryland
    I followed this for my 1675 standard DG 20K win with Byz, posted with the last HOF update. My territory wasn't great, but I got 2 SGLs (Writing and Literature). I was afraid to gift the enemies with techs, so they fell behind me and weren't much use after the early part of the Middle Ages except for trading resources and luxuries.
     
  16. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    yes, sanabas. I will definitely give them a shot, having never done a 20K game above regent, nor any demigod games
     
  17. archphoenix

    archphoenix Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    355
    I want try a top-1 20k with little time consume using this guide.

    with mapfinder, I wonder whether a single cb-sgl can beat 1300AD.
     
  18. archphoenix

    archphoenix Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    355
    a single cb-sgl come out to be a 14XXAD victory.

    5 sgl (2 in AA 2 in MA 1 in IA) come out to be a 1325AD victory.

    i will follow sanabas's advice, if no more than 3 SGL in AA,

    i will abandon the game.

    that's mean I will disapear until years later with a TOP1 20K game.;)
     
  19. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    You got a 1325 AD victory on Demigod?? wow. that is... impressive.
     
  20. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,269
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    I suspect that it was chieftain, going off the previous question.

    No way. Beat 1400 (i.e. a 1395 finish) would be possible, given a very good start. Like the 6 cow version above. To finish at 1300 with only 1 sgl would probably require a custom designed, multiple cow, multiple iron & coal hills, only 1 sea square start.

    I'm following my own advice so far, I'm halfway through a very promising looking game for the gauntlet as the Byzantines.
     

Share This Page