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The Immortal Challenge 1: Apocalypto

Well, you can't draft Cannon and IMO they are the best defensive unit in the game, they'll smash incoming Infantry stacks if you have enough of them. If you want to avoid adopting a state religion then pop into Vassalage. Clearly if you just want to draft gunpowder units then Nationhood will give you a better bang for the pop, even considering that you don't get the UBs benefit.

Darrell
 
I vote for SoL also. You still have about 300 years left to use the free specialists, pretty good deal.

As for internet, I think it's a good idea to beeline for it. I am not as worried about factories, but having it will help complete internet faster. I remembered my last game where I tried to win by space in deity, after building the internet, I beelined for fussion to get the free GE, then I set the science slider to 0 and just let the other civs research for me. I use the cash to buy all the factories and the nuclear plants.

Just a wild idea, what about stockpiling nukes just in case? Let's say it comes down to a race to complete an SS part between us and an AI and the AI has a headstart. Wouldn't it be nice if we could nuke the AI city that is building it? It would totally destroy the city's productivity and we might be able to stall the AI's army for a couple of turns until we win.

Of course, SDI means that we probably need a couple of ICBMs just to ensure a hit. Add to that the fact that we probably have to build the Manhattan Project ourselves :shake:

Or we can build a bunch of spies. It's expensive to sabotage, but then again we are not researching anything in the end, so money won't be a problem. You are gonna need the spies anyway to monitor AI's progress on the parts. I lost that deity space game by 5 or so turns, and really wished that I had a few spies or nukes.

btw, I know we can't rush projects, but can we chop for them? in any cases save the trees, I think you can definitely chop for SS parts.
 
btw, I know we can't rush projects, but can we chop for them? in any cases save the trees, I think you can definitely chop for SS parts.

I believe you can chop everything.

Or we can build a bunch of spies.

A bunch... 3
 
I believe you can chop everything.

A bunch... 3

Yes, you can chop-rush projects such as the Internet and space ship parts.

You can actually build 4 spies; 3 is the limit on missionaries.
 
Does this mean you endorse the Internet? I mean in the context of this game, of course ;)

Yeah, I usually build it in any space race where there are 2+ AIs which are competitive in technology. It's basically free tech. Ny standard space race order is

Biology
Assembly Line
Rocketry
Fibre Optics
Fusion
Whatever the AI doesn't have yet to maximize the chance of getting other techs free.

Rush the Ironworks? It's pretty beneficial as well. We also have the option of hurrying the Space Elevator later to give us a much better chance of getting it.

Ironworks won't go away, and you don't need it in a hurry unless you are planning to attack. It is too early to worry about the Elevator yet and you can get the Fusion engineer for it.
 
Ironworks won't go away, and you don't need it in a hurry unless you are planning to attack. It is too early to worry about the Elevator yet and you can get the Fusion engineer for it.
I gotta agree... it seems sacrilege to use a GE for a national wonder. :dubious:

After my Hannibal ALC, I'm a big advocate of the Internet in situations such as uberfish described. You're not likely to face much, if any competition for it. I think I've only seen the AI build it once, and I could be mistaken about that. Those that can don't need to, and those that need to, can't. :lol:

In my opinion, that's what the Internet is there for--to help the human player pull off a late-game, hail mary, come-from-behind win.
 
So am I right to say that there is a general agreement here that we should get the Internet and that we should use the GE for SoL?

I'm in favour of getting Assembly Line soon, as uberfish recommended, in any case. I think being able to build infantry would really help with our security, and factories would be an important boost to our productivity in the meantime.

Well, you can't draft Cannon and IMO they are the best defensive unit in the game, they'll smash incoming Infantry stacks if you have enough of them. If you want to avoid adopting a state religion then pop into Vassalage. Clearly if you just want to draft gunpowder units then Nationhood will give you a better bang for the pop, even considering that you don't get the UBs benefit.

Good point. We need to whip in Lyons anyway, so this might happen. I guess we can also draft later if we manage to trade for Rifling.
 
When you're not spiritual, you don't gain anything by converting earlier. One lost turn is one lost turn, whether you lose the turn when your capital is small or when it's big. You end up at exactly the same point, in the end.

The best time to convert (if early happiness is not needed) is immediately after you build your first settler, and before you found your second city. This way, your capital still loses one turn (which will happen whatever you do), but your second city doesn't lose any turns.

What you say is valid if there are no workers involved. When there is a worker too often that instead of working an unimproved tile for a turn it is better to go to anarchy and let the worker improve special tiles. I haven't read this thread fully though.
 
Your cities are developing quite well. It's only a matter of time that you outpace the AI research rate.

However, it's production that wins the space race. I'm for beelining Assembly Line and starting the industrial revolution. It's time to identify your production centers and build national wonders. Didn't see the National Epic. If it is not build yet, or if it is in a potential production centre, consider combining Ironworks+National Epic+Factory for GEs.

In the short term, use the GE to hurry the Statue if you feel there is risk the AI will snatch it. Otherwise, GE the Ironworks (which is the only good use of GE for national wonder).

Finally, there are only 2 cities directly threatened by Rome. When you have decent military techs you can garrison them well. In case of war, Augustus will waste many turns to pillage, bombard, suicide, etc and you will have all the time to retool for military production and defeat him. You'll do far better than the AI in massive military production in constrained time periods. With the size of your empire, you can win any war given some time to prepare.
 
Your cities are developing quite well. It's only a matter of time that you outpace the AI research rate.

However, it's production that wins the space race. I'm for beelining Assembly Line and starting the industrial revolution.

Production is the key also to Conquest/Domination. I go for Assembly Line too, but Railroad is also good and it does not produce unhealthiness.
 
Assembly Line (factories and coal plants), Railroads (improve mines first, then general mobility), Rocketry (get apollo underway), Computers (labs), then Fiber Optics and Fusion. That's the order I use if there's no trading to be had. Industrialism (aluminum) has to fit in somewhere, and I'm never sure if it belongs before or after Rocketry. But, this order isn't planning on the Internet, and I don't count on the Fusion GE. I'm curious to see how well the Internet plays in this game.

Of course, trading opportunities can change the priorities somewhat. If there's a single lead rival for the space race, try to avoid trading with him.

I often start the Ironworks, then get to Assembly Line and postpone it until after the factory and coal plant are built in that city. Depending on how close to done the Ironworks is, either order can be correct.

peace,
lilnev
 
This is the part of the tech tree that is really difficult. There are so many branches that are quite necessary. I almost always have to trade for important techs like Railroads and Combustion because there are other techs I'm rushing to. Now we want Assembly Line and Industrialism, but we also want Computers for the labs. And we also need to get Rocketry, Satellites and Fibre Optics, especially if we want the Internet. And wouldn't the Space Elevator be nice (requires Robotics, which requires Plastics)? Argh!!
 
I usually skip industrialism and get it from the internet. Actually I usually get computers before rocketry too and sometimes even before assembly line too - left that one off my beeline.
 
I almost never build the elevator. I find I'm tech limited at the end--the elevator will knock a few turns off--not worth it. I usually get to computers before rocketry. Usually I take assembly line first tho.

As for the engineer here, I think SOL for sure. You'll get a lot of mileage out of it as well as keeping it from the AI.
 
Computers is a good beeline. There is usually trade to be had along the way (Radio, for example). Computers is necessary for Fibre Optics (Internet). Labs speed up space ship production and research.

After this its onto Rocketry -> ... -> Fibre Optics.

Internet is great if there are two civs leading with similar tech parity. If there is one run-away civ in tech, it won't help as much.

Assembly Line and Biology are the only techs worth detouring for, IMHO.
 
Round 8: 1600AD - 1740AD

Guessing that Ramesses was researching Replacable Parts, I decided to research Physics first, which is on the path towards Computers (which we need for Fibre Optics and labs). Hopefully in a couple of turns Ramesses would have gotten Replacable Parts, and we could get it off him and start researching towards Assembly Line for infantry and factories.

I also decided to sell the by now old tech of Liberalism:

Immortal138.jpg


The gold would again be useful for keeping our science rate up.

Then Mehmed, the ungrateful man, came to us with a demand:

Immortal139.jpg


Well, I guess he really believes that it's good, but a demand is a demand. Yes, we're Spiritual, but again, accepting his demand would do us more harm than good. We would suffer from higher upkeep for at least five turns, not to mention losing the benefits of Free Speech (both important at this point). Besides, it would put us out of sync with the planned temporary switch to Slavery, thus allowing Lyons to starve when it comes out of revolt (in 4 turns' time) and thereby wasting population points that could be converted into hammers, which could in turn be converted into quick culture. Whew, what a long sentence! :p

Anyway, as agreed, we used the GE to rush the remaining 545 hammers or so of the SoL (don't worry, we switched to another build while waiting for the GE to get there):

Immortal140.jpg


The result of which Mexica became the land of the free :king: Immigrants from all over the world came when they heard about the Declaration of Human Rights, which followed the peaceful mass demonstrations of the Civil Rights Movement (although Slavery had been abolished for some time, the descendants of slaves continued to suffer from discrimination) and was immortalised by a giant copper statue that marked the site of Itzlcoatl King's speech ("I have a dream..."). This influx of foreign talent would prove to be significantly beneficial for us.

However, the tensions within the Aztec society did not dissipate easily. Many conservatives were appalled by the liberalism of the respresentative government. With the continued rebellion in Lyons reaching its 35th year, the Republican government lost its credibility among the right-wing generals of the army and a coup was quickly planned. They conspirators came to a compromise on who was to lead the coup and chose a centre-right general who kept the representative government, appointing an interim Cabinet and promising elections within 5 years. The major policy shifts of the new government were the limited re-establishment of Slavery and protectionism (the closing of foreign trade routes, ostensibly to eliminate a balance of payments deficit, protect local business and reduce unemployment):

Immortal141.jpg


Most of the empire, however, did not see the significant return of slavery as the junta was not keen on offending sensibilities too much. Slaves were used to build cannon in a few cities, the government's rationale being the fact that the Romans to the south continued to pose a threat to national security, despite good bilateral relations. In Lyons, however, the larger part of the native population was thrown into labour camps and forced to build necessary infrastructure - theatres and libraries meant to disseminate government propaganda to combat Roman cultural imperialism. Over 60% of the population were affected and about 50% died in what, in retrospect, seems to be more of a reaction against the rebellion. However, revisionist historians have argued that the rebellion was effectively exhausted by then, after decades of bloody struggle. More recently, some have argued that the city would have suffered from mass starvation anyway due to the flood of impoverished Roman migrants who took advantage of the chaos and settled around the city, causing a major food shortage. But, even then, they conceded that the famine would have claimed far fewer lives than the labour camps.

After 5 years had elapsed, elections were finally held, but they were rigged. The junta was 'voted' back to power and the Cabinet remained, with only minor reshuffling done. The same thing happened for the next three elections, but those that accused the government of fraudulence became increasingly vociferous. The junta tried to silence the press, but its efforts were in vain. Pamphlets and illegal newspapers were widely circulated, and in Tenochtitlan itself there was a large dissident movement led by the Republicans. On the fourth election, 25 years after the military siezed power, the junta again won by a landslide, but the Republicans demanded a recount with greater transparency. When the government refused, a general strike was called, crippling the Aztec economy. Even the slaves refused to work. After a week, the government finally collapsed. The police turned on the junta and arrested its leaders, and another election was held in which the Republicans swept to power once again. Slavery was again abolished, but the popular protectionist policies remained. [end story]

Anyway, true enough, Ramesses did research Replacable Parts. But we waited for the discovery of Physics, so we could kill two birds with one stone:

Immortal142.jpg


Going for Assembly Line, it seemed natural to research Steam Power next. But since all the other AIs already had it, I assumed that it would soon be Ramesses' research choice (after Rifling), so we waited by researching Electricity (on the path to Computers) first. Anyway, the extra commerce from windmills and watermill would be nice.

And then I noticed that Augustus had become Friendly, so...

Immortal143.jpg


We should be relatively safe now, assuming we can keep the Roman Catholics happy enough to maintain the pact.

As I guessed, it turned out that Ramesses did get Rifling next:

Immortal144.jpg


Rifling is needed for Rocketry and also leads to it via Artillery. We'll see if the Egyptian did get Steam Power next. Several turns later, Electricity was discovered, but Ramesses still didn't have it. Oh, well, let's research Radio first, then.

Meanwhile, we got our next GP:

Immortal145.jpg


Since a prophet is of limited use this late in the game, I decided to keep him for a GA later on. We don't know what GPs we would be getting next. If we get a GE subsequently, we might want to use him to hurry the Space Elevator, and there's no telling that we'd get the different types of GP needed for a GA in time for a space win.

And our gamble did pay off. Ramesses did research Steam Power:

Immortal146.jpg


Great :goodjob: We left Radio for now and researched Assembly Line first.

Anyway, it's getting late and this post took longer to write than expected, with the story and all :p, so I'll post the next half of the update tomorrow.

[to be continued in the next post...]
 
Surely the names of the difficulty levels have nothing to do with it at all. The problem is that war is far and away the easiest way to win at any difficulty and on almost any map/settings. It's so much easier to win a victory by smiting all your rivals or conquering a monster empire for yourself, that taking any other approach is like going up a level (or two; I can beat emperor with constant war, but I can still struggle to beat prince if I play peacefully - this was not the case on vanilla).

Now, this wouldn't be such a problem if I liked to decide on my strategy (warlike or peaceful) before I start. But, most of the time at least, I want to work out the best strategy and implement it, and as things stand the best strategy is nearly always war, war and more war. If I have to drop down a level or two to even have the choice of playing peacefully, I will always have to decide in advance what kind of game I wish to play (and I might as well just go out and buy M:TW2 for my warlike gaming, since I'm sure it does violence much better than civ anyway).

edit: Just saw Melon Head's post, with which I agree wholeheartedly.

Sorry for replying to a post 10 pages previous to the most recent post, but I found the discussion fascinating and I wanted to comment.

I think the main reason why domination victory is so common is because the game mechanics of Civ 4 give an unreasonable bonus to domination-based strategies.

Namely, the city maintenance cap is far too low. As it stands, once you obtain a certain number of cities, you no longer have to worry about the rising empire management costs of conquering more cities, because you've hit the cap. (I'll grant that I'm currently playing on Monarch, so I don't know what these caps are like on higher levels, but I think the argument still stands that there is a direct relationship between that cap and the frequency of domination wins).

If that cap were raised, or eliminated altogether, then it would be harder to win via domination/conquest, and other victory conditions would be more common.
 
Sorry for replying to a post 10 pages previous to the most recent post, but I found the discussion fascinating and I wanted to comment.

I think the main reason why domination victory is so common is because the game mechanics of Civ 4 give an unreasonable bonus to domination-based strategies.

Namely, the city maintenance cap is far too low. As it stands, once you obtain a certain number of cities, you no longer have to worry about the rising empire management costs of conquering more cities, because you've hit the cap. (I'll grant that I'm currently playing on Monarch, so I don't know what these caps are like on higher levels, but I think the argument still stands that there is a direct relationship between that cap and the frequency of domination wins).

If that cap were raised, or eliminated altogether, then it would be harder to win via domination/conquest, and other victory conditions would be more common.
I think you have a point here, however, I would argue that the game perhaps has too many options for reducing maintenance costs (courthouses, Forbidden Palace, Versailles, State Property) rather than maintenance being too low. As the game goes on you can substantially reduce maintenance so that the price of maintaining a large empire is not nearly as onerous as it is in the real world.

Back to this game--another set of masterful moves. Why am I not surprised? Very deft tech-trading there, especially with Ramesses. You've taken Montezuma and made him into Mansa Musa! :lol: Who woulda thunk it?
 
I've never built the Internet. It seems like it comes too late, but maybe not.

In my last game (playing at Prince level), I beelined Fiber Optics, built the Internet, and got the following techs from it:

Composites
Refrigeration
Mass Media
Robotics
Ecology

Oh, and also Divine Right.

5 modern techs for 1 wonder? Not a bad rate of return, if you ask me.
 
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