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The Immortal is a Walking Death Machine

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by MarigoldRan, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Oh My God. It's a tanky cheap Saki horse archer (same mobility, 20 less production) that has TWO range, a melee attack that can take cities, AND gets bonuses from Oligarchy.

    Once you have 10 of them in the classical and early medieval era they're unkillable. A moving carpet of doom with 4 movement speed that shoots everything in sight.

    How do you get 10 of them quickly? Easy. Build 10 warriors, which is easy with the Magnus Chop, and delay iron working. Then accumulate gold (1700 to upgrade all or 850 with the 50% discount to upgrade cost card), which is very easy to do with the Persians thanks to your Unique Improvement, which gives you gold like CRAZY. .

    Once you have 10 of them it's game over for EVERYONE. The reason is because they can move 2 or 3 times and then shoot, meaning that they can do damage to everything around it WITHOUT TAKING ANY DAMAGE THEMSELVES.

    And if you try to attack them with melee or horse units, they laugh in the face of danger because they're incredibly tanky 4-move archers THAT GET THE OLIGOPOLY BONUS (at least for their melee defenses). With their 4 movement speed they can outmanuever and outtank even Nubian Bowman.

    OMG. OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG.

    Diety? Doesn't matter. A moving carpet of 7-10 immortals KILL EVERYTHING.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    NegativeZero and Hammurabbit like this.
  2. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Warlord

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    Yawn. And I can beat my 6 year old niece at chess.
    Try your OMG OMG OMG strategy at Deity level against >25 other civs
    on a ludicrous size (200x100) Terra map for impressive bragging rights. :)
     
  3. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Among other things I can crush you at chess. I always love it when people use that analogy because I'm an actual chessmaster. USCF >2200.

    And I AM playing Diety against 18 Civs on Huge.
     
    kaspergm, magha77, whylom and 9 others like this.
  4. Benzombie

    Benzombie Chieftain

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    I dare say they are..., IMMORTAL.
     
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  5. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    I've never played with Persia since I always found the "Surprise War" bonus to be kind of boring. I don't care about declaring surprise wars that much, even though I'm a warmonger, so I don't think it'd be that much of a bonus. Besides the Immortals, are they really that good?
     
  6. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    The reason people don't like immortals is that they're expensive hammer-wise. 100 hammers is a lot, and so they only get 2 or 3 and so they think: "oh these things are just expensive archers."

    What they fail to realize is that as the Persians you shouldn't build immortals. Instead, you should build warriors and then UPGRADE them to immortals. 40 hammers and 170 gold per immortal, which sounds expensive, but Persians can accumulate gold like crazy in the early game. Their unique improvement is a spammable gold mine that provides culture.

    Once you have like >7 of them with Surprise War they're unstoppable until late medieval.

    Its the synergy. The Persian Unique Improvement + the extra moves from constant surprise war + immortals (upgraded from warrior) = unstoppable killing machine.

    With Surprise War the Persians have a better archer rush than the Nubians since their warriors move at 4 speed, too. Surprise War +2 movement is one of the most OP abilities in the game because it turns your infantry and archers into horsemen and 2-range horse archers.

    Just imagine a Saki Horse Archer with 2 range. That's what your new and improved archers are like with "Surprise War".

    It also makes your builders and settlers move faster, too! Which is a big deal because it means you can settle and improve faster.

    I haven't tried this yet, but I just realized this:

    Persian horsemen get SIX moves with Surprise war. SIX.

    SURPRISE!

    And in the late game with rangers/spec ops and the woodland or hill moving promotion and well, yeah. Think about that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2018
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  7. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Chieftain

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    They are quite good units as their Battlecry and Oligarchy combat bonuses increase their ranged combat strength.

    A base 30 melee and 25 ranged combat strength is a good foundation for essentially a stronger archer unit in the classical era.
    They can hit 40 ranged combat strength with Battlecry (+7 str.) and stacked Oligarchy (+8 str.) while still able to hold off cavalry units due soaking hits in melee and retaliating with ranged combat.
    Spoiler :

    The extra movement in surprise wars is an added bonus with their ranged capabilities, but it works just as well with light/heavy cavalry units.

    Overall they are strong due to their range prowess while other civs field archers, but lack that shear momentum cavalry units have during their eras.
     
  8. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    No, they actually have more momentum since you don't need to heal them as they don't get damaged attacking cities. The key is to get 7-10 of them so they can two-shot cities in the classical era, and three-shot cities with walls. Thanks to their ranged attack, you don't even need battering rams, or maneuver until you've surrounded a city, which always slows the horsemen down.

    And it doesn't matter if you run into choke points because you can always pelt them with arrows.

    I would know because I play as the Scythians, too. And 10 Persian immortals are better at taking cities then 1.5x the number of horsemen. Besides, a lot less micro.

    Surprise War is actually really important for immortals because it means you can maneuver AND shoot.

    Its like what Nubia has, but better.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2018
  9. vaejovis

    vaejovis Chieftain

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    I’ve been trying to peg down a good Persian strategy, and apparently have completely overlooked the obvious, ha.

    The only (small) problem with the immortal is it’s timing in the tech tree - you still need to build 2-3 slingers (and upgrade to archers) to support the first war (or two) in the ancient era before getting iron working.

    So basically, here’s my rough build order:
    Capital: Slinger —> scout/builder (if not at 2 pop) —> settler* —> finish builder —> warrior ad nauseum (with agoge) —> monument, etc

    *Try to buy a settler with lux profits before finishing building the 2nd

    2nd/3rd: Slinger (should have agoge) —> warrior ad nauseum —> builder (switch to ilikum) —> monument, etc.

    Upgrade to archers, have 6-7 warriors, finish 1st war with hefty peace deal, finally get iron working, upgrade to immortals, build horsemen, chariots, etc., steamroll rest of continent, win.
     
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  10. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    Can they take cities though? Or how do you take cities if your melee units of that era are actually ranged units? Need to keep a warrior or horseman around for it?
     
  11. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Warlord

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    Excellent rating, Master Marigold! That would have taken strong commitment.
    (I gave up chess in 1975 with a rating of just under 1800. I don't know what
    that translates to these days. I couldn't bear to play another game against, or
    using a Sicilian Dragon where both of us knew the opening to at least the 1st 30
    moves.)

    In any case, all it really proves is that you can beat me and my niece. And that
    you are like a young Reti with your horsey openings in Civ, and maybe chess. :)

    That's not >25 civs on a 200x100 Terra map, proving that I can beat you at
    pedantry, logic and being ultra-annoying. :p
     
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  12. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Dunno about the Immortals...but more evidence that the Magnus chop needs to be chopped! Hopefully something that is going to be addressed in this patch.
     
  13. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Chieftain

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    Immortals can take cities as their ranged attack is optional.

    There was only a brief moment when immortals couldn't take cities due to their ranged ability, but that was changed a while ago in patches.
     
  14. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Indeed. Firaxis saw sense (may or may not be in part because I whined about Immortals not being able to take cities a lot in these forums). Immortals can now take cities--just make sure that when adjacent to a city you specifically press the melee button, since the default Immortal attack mode is ranged.
     
  15. Lupine

    Lupine Chieftain

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    They changed immortals so that they can capture cities now.

    *beat to the punch
     
  16. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Taking that away again may make them less O.P. The original design sounds more balanced.
     
  17. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    I don't actually learn openings for precisely that reason. The best strategy against a person who memorizes long opening lines is to play weird or flexible ones. For example: e4, c5, Nc3, followed by g3. Or d4, Nf6, g4.

    Keeps the game fun and the opponent off kilter.
     
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  18. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Warlord

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    So my "Reti" quip wasn't far off the mark then. :)
    I was hyper-modern before it was cool. Now, at 62, I'm just hyper.
     
  19. Abaxial

    Abaxial Chieftain

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    Reminds me of the correspondence game which started by Black writing to White. "Whatever you play, my first moves are 1. g6 and 2, Bg7". White then opened 1.b3 and 2. Bg2. Thank you! Now back to Civ ...
     
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  20. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Warlord

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    I'm not a fan of Woody Allen, but his short story about two weirdos playing a
    correspondence game is pretty funny.
    http://maxxwolf.tripod.com/woody.html

    Of course that's not off-topic! It's a salutory warning to anyone who is crazy
    enough to think that correspondence multiplayer Civ is possible.
     
  21. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    It would also hobble an infantry unit to make it unable to capture cities, and functionally one would almost always use the ranged attack instead.
     

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