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The Immortal Saga 1: The Seven Seas

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by aelf, Sep 2, 2008.

  1. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Signed under. Neither Cyrus or SB can do you much harm if you are not sleeping ( that is why I warned you... last thing you wanted is to be ferrying your army and Cyrus coming by ) and you probably will not gain much from the wars ( if you were in 3.19, vassaling them would be more useful, due to the change in the tech trading rules between vassals and masters ). Think on it as a side show for fanservice :D
     
  2. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    Good thread. I have great difficulty moving up to Immortal with BTS. Either I fall too far behind in military or technology. You seem to have to choose one then the other is too weak.
     
  3. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    If it'll take 2 turns to change civics, why not tech to the Christo Redentor wonder and build that (radio).

    You should really commit to a victory condition, if its space, and it would seem so, teching to Radio is requirement for further up the tree. We've all seen domination victories.

    So now, do you hold off on Sids Sushi, or revolt and run free market to end.

    Build those research labs, boost science rates, tech away. Standard Ethanol gives oil and a +2 science boost per resource consumed (sugar, corn, Rice). The oil is only generated in the city of incorporation.

    Aluminum Co Give +3:beakers: per resource consumed as well as Aluminum resource in city of incorporation. Those 2 give +5 science, with 100% multipliers that's +10 science, per 1 resource each consumed. ie 5 coal and +2 rice, +2 corn, +1 sugar = +50 Science boost.

    How many of each resource do you have, or can conceivably gain?? They may provide a better long term benefit than +? food, for which you need to grow population.
     
  4. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    So any suggestions on where to attack? Let's just assume that we're not going for domination and we're seeking to preserve our forces as much as possible while delivering a hard enough blow to end the war soon.
     
  5. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    With respect to the war with Sitting Bull I wouldn't do much. He's not a threat and adding one or two of his cities won't make much of a difference. I believe he's also the hardest of the AIs to get peace with. If you want to go to war with him, I'd go all out -- aiming for a carrier supported invasion. As space is the goal I would make sure you have a mobile stack (~10 units) to counter his paltry forces. A naval screen of 3-4 destroyers is probably a good idea.

    Space Race A couple things: I'd skip Sushi unless you can also get a GE fairly soon -- State Property is a nice civic and doesn't require the investment that setting up Sushi will take. My guess is that production will be a little harder to come by than usual, so my tech path would be: AL (get those factories up)->Industrialism (Aluminum reveal)->Rocketry->Superconductors->Composites->Fusion->Ecology. I don't think the Space Elevator is worth it, and it looks like you won't need the internet. Naturally, this is all subject to the AIs tech rate and path.

    You are in a fine position for a win :)
     
  6. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    So we don't invade Sitting Bull unless we're going for a big attack? But would a very long low-intensity conflict hinder us?

    As for Sid's Sushi, well, we already put effort into getting a GM just for it (would've gotten something else if I had let one of the other cities get a GP first). I think I'm for trying it out in this game for fun, if nothing else.
     
  7. Tyrant Roger

    Tyrant Roger Warlord

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    I would commit to a space race at this point. Build Sushi and grow big or at least fat.

    Let sitting bulls lie. A low intensity war with him will be nothing more than a distraction.

    Build a much stronger defensive force to counter the invasion from a different AI that is very likely to come soon.

    Production more than tech is often the key variable in a space race. You need factories and you need to know if you have aluminum. If you don't, you may need to capture a city that does.

    Give Liz the chance to watch your spaceship head for the stars.
     
  8. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Even when committed to space i wouldn't go AL now. Radio seems best to me in that case.
     
  9. The M'Hael

    The M'Hael Chieftain

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    You are almost done!
     
  10. weekend_warrior

    weekend_warrior Warlord

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    Well I just spent my entire Saturday reading this, and it's not even done yet! Son of a....

    Well I'm no expert but at this point I might as well give my $.02.

    Do you think you have enough hammers to make a space win viable? I've only had 1 space win, with 2 monster production citys and several good ones, and it was still quite an ordeal. In a game where you've had to whip pretty much every build this might be the wrong route. Also taking into consideration that Lizzy has nearly a 100+ hammer lead on you, and with her small land mass she's unlikely to pursue a conquest victory.

    Your other option would be a conquest victory yourself. And it might be possible given your tech lead over several other nations. Cyrus and Sitting Bull could easily be taken, what are your chances against Sury and Willaim? Are they backwards too? Perhaps to can persuade Lizzy to join forces with you to take out these weaker Civs?

    Just some thoughts.
     
  11. weekend_warrior

    weekend_warrior Warlord

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    any progress on this?
     
  12. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I was away from the forum altogether for 2 weeks because I had to prepare for the GRE and had to move back into uni. Before that, I had a couple of projects going on that took up most of my time.

    I'm looking to pick this up again sometime next week after I've finished with a graded assignment. So hang in there for a little while more! :blush:
     
  13. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Round 11: 1708AD - 1748AD

    Finally found some time to write this update. Term-time had been busier than expected. I'll just jump straight in.

    I decided that we would experiment with Sid Sushi after all, so we switched to Free Market immediately:



    The hit our economy took from the increase in maintenance was pretty significant, I think. Well, it could've been worse if we didn't have this many cities to benefit from the extra trade route. Still, it meant slower research, at least for now.

    Sid's Sushi was founded in our capital immediately after that:



    I reasoned that Carthage was the most likely to build Wall Street. Besides, it has enough hammers and infrastructure up to be able to build executives without really falling behind.

    And, as you might have noticed, we researched Superconductor. I decided to hold off on Assembly Line in the hope of being able to trade for it soon. Superconductors would also allow us to build labs, which would speed up research a little and help with spaceship construction later.

    As for the war, I decided to heed the advice that some of you gave and not pursue the offensive against Sitting Bull, since we had little to gain from such an adventure. I think we'd rather not sink into oblivion with him by fighting a potentially costly war of attrition.

    In order to keep our research rate up now that we're paying more for maintenance, I decided to start selling older techs to whoever had some cash, beginning with Willem:



    Making sure to check that we're not angering someone we're trying to coexist with before making trades.

    And what happened next looked promising for the diplomatic side of things:



    Small price to pay for +3 to relations. Making the choice bumped our Khmer neighbour up from Cautious to Pleased. So far so good. We need to keep relations cool in order to focus on winning the space race.

    On that note, fortunately enough, Sitting Bull was ready to make peace a few turns later:



    As a bonus, he was also willing to part with some gold. I suppose the annihilation of his invading army made enough of an impression.

    Worse news came soon after, though, as Liz made a rather significant demand:



    Rather absurdly, our most advanced rival, who is probably more advanced than we are, thought that she could simply ask us for help and expect to get it. What, do we run a charity for the rich or something?

    But I had to think about this demand. Is giving her Combustion worth avoiding -1 to relations? In the end, I decided that our relations could withstand a small malus without dropping to Pleased. We needn't help Liz increase her tech lead.

    Right after this, yet another AI made a demand:



    No, sorry. Don't want to complicate matters right now. Willem remained Pleased anyway, so refusing him turned out to be the best choice overall in terms of keeping things smooth with everybody.

    Next, we sold another old tech to someone with a bit of gold to pay:



    It's not a lot, but we needed that money to finish Superconductors in 3 turns.

    We did that and built the first executive. He was sent to Hadrumetum, since it's a fairly high-commerce city with perpetual growth problems due to having too many non-seafood sea tiles:



    Now we can consider changing that plains farm tile to something else, either a cottage for more commerce or a workshop for more hammers. The city's pretty hammer-starved as well.

    I decided to research Radio next in a bid to delay Assembly Line for a little while longer. And then it was time for another GP to be born:



    Well, not exactly what I was hoping for, but I guess it will have to do. I settled the prophet in our capital to benefit from Wall Street eventually, as well as for more hammers to build the wonder.

    I'll post the other half of the update in a few days or so.

    [to be continued]
     
  14. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    [continued from previous post]

    And it turned out that we could trade for Assembly Line after all:



    It was not cheap, admittedly. But we need it and I'm not sure what other opportunities there would be for trading for it. At least this way we get both Superconductors and Assembly Line, even if that's the case for Liz as well.

    Next turn, a bad event occurred:



    It was no big deal, though. Rebuilding the theatre seemed to be the best option, especially since Hadrumetum doesn't have many hammers to spare.

    We traded another old tech, more for the money than the tech we received in return:



    And at this point, I realised that we got a Great General from our last war against Cyrus ages ago and had forgotten about him:



    Could've used him to boost the experience of some the units we built or to speed up their production during subsequent wars :wallbash: Oh, well. I decided to settle him in Hippo since it's our military city.

    A few turns later, we got another demand:



    This time, I decided to give in. Pacal had slid into Cautious and Medicine wasn't really crucial anymore. Giving it to him did result in him being Pleased again. Hope he remembers it for a long time.

    We made one more trade this round:



    I consider that a pretty profitable one, since the tech is so old. And it doesn't really increase Sitting Bull's threat and doesn't make anyone unhappy, so it's good.

    After we discovered Radio, I decided to stop playing. We need to decide on our next steps.

    First of all, here’s our diplomatic relations:



    I think we're good, except that the Khmer seem to have forgotten our food aid. That's kind of stupid, since that was quite recent. What's the point of the event if it's not going to do any good for any significant amount of time?

    Maybe it's just the Khmer. Not sure what I can do to improve the situation, given that they remember grudges well and quickly forget the good things that we do.

    Looking at our science advisor, showing the people who matter:



    We have Radio on Liz and Refrigeration on Pacal, the two most advanced civs besides us. Liz has Industrialism and Artillery on us, which are the more worrying stuff compared to things like Mass Media. And she won't trade any of those for Radio, implying perhaps that she has been researching the latter.

    By now I think we're pretty much focused upwards. Researching Industrialism next for aluminium seems to be the natural choice, but we could consider going for Flight, hoping to trade it for something else. I don't think we can get Industrialism for that, though. Maybe Artillery? So it might still pay to research Industrialism ourselves first. If nothing else, we need to confirm if we have aluminium (we should at this size, unless we're very unlucky).

    Now how important is the Space Elevator? If anything, I'd say that denying it might be a good idea. If we're going for it, then it might be wise to structure our research for it. Rocketry might still have priority to get the expensive Apollo down, but we could have a route like Industrialism -> Flight/Artillery -> Rocketry -> Plastics -> Computers -> Robotics.

    If we want Three Gorges' as well we can switch Plastics with Flight/Artillery, though I doubt we can beat Liz to it, especially looking at this:



    She's still #1 in GNP and production, so we can assume that she will start on the Three Gorges' soon, if she's not already building it. It might not be impossible to get, though, so we may still want to consider it as a healthier option than coal plants.

    We still need to boost our military strength, but right now unit production has been paused for factory-building. After that, we should probably try to have something like double the number of our cities of modern units, including at least 3 infantries for every border/island city. How does that sound? We can retire some old units, and after building a modern army we can proceed to build a sizeable navy to protect our seas.

    Here's a map of our empire now:



    As I said, factories everywhere right now. We'll need them for the extensive building up in the near future.

    So, what do you say about all the questions so far? Any other thoughts? I hope I didn't miss anything out.
     

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  15. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    1st thing Elizabeth hasn't gotten RADIO, ergo, she can't and DOESN'T have plastics.(3 gorges dam)

    Flight then the Appollo program tech rocketry, build it, or if really worried, beeline plastics, then go rocketry.

    the Trade for Superconductors, I really think that a mistake, as the AI is hard coded??(what does that mean) not to TRADE AWAY space ship techs', so why do same.

    Beeline plastics, build 3 gorges, rocketry, beeline fission (great engineer) then fill out space techs, and don't TRADE THEM AWAY....unless your getting pre requisites that you really need and can afford to do so.
     
  16. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Hmm... good point. Do you think it's worth it, though? It's expensive and we don't have a GE handy.

    Since when does the AI serve as the basis for our tactical decisions? ;)

    Well, the thing is we might as well say that Assembly Line is a space ship tech. I just don't see how we could win the space race without it. I'm not so much concerned with how the tech can be labeled as with its importance. Is Assembly Line more important than Superconductors? I think so, even if it's not cheaper.

    Besides, we had essentially two probable choices: To have both Assembly Line and Superconductors for the price of giving the latter to Liz, or to only have Superconductors and research Assembly Line ourselves at the opportunity cost of being unable to research another important tech right away. I chose the former, which isn't a clearly inferior choice. If anything, it might help us seal the Three Gorges' Dam.
     
  17. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    Hey, nice to see you back.

    Unfortunately, space elevator is a total trap in BTS, especially if you go superconductors through refrigeration as you did - takes two extra techs you don't otherwise need for spaceship.

    Also wouldn't put a lot of stock in the TGD since your empire is spread out over multiple islands. Due to IW, it would be cheaper than building 8 coal plants, but maybe not a priority (unless Persepolis pops a GE in a bit, you have a 1 in 4 chance).

    Why Flight over Artillery, IPEX? Arty is cheaper. OTOH, if you want to win this by flattening Liz out of the space race, a beeline for flight + rushbuying bombers may be your best shot.

    I'd be tempted to tech Genetics in hopes of either Artillery or Industrialism becoming tradeable. What's FDR's known tech percent threshold? Sorry, too late for me to go looking for my leader spreadsheet.
     
  18. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    I say flight for the +1 trade routes, air lifting capacity, and Artillery is really only good if your going to blast someone.

    Flight also gives trade opportunities, but fighters can flatten cottages, workshops etc. Same for bombers etc. flight/Artillery is 1 turn if any, what the deal.

    Depends on AELF'S out look I suppose, I'd never have traded superconductors 50% space ship construction building, 25% science, but that's me.
     
  19. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    My ability to estimate future progress and the outcome might be off these days. Do you guys think that there's a good chance the space race will come down to that, having to bomb Liz back to the stone age?

    Right now I'm a bit more positive about our prospects, but I could be wrong.
     
  20. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    No, I tend to find, the A.I, tends to wonder about with space ship Techs, they go for advanced flight, and robotics (mech inf, pretty good, but dead end) IF you grab Fission 1st, they'll tend to delay it, as no reward, Composites for Modern Armour, works both ways.

    Spies to Sabotage her workshops, destroy a space ship part, if worse comes to worse, have a fleet of marines/battleships x5 off her capital coast, wait till she launches/ you've launched, and take her capital, destroy her ship, and win, with a ho hum defend for couple turns.
     

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