[RD] The impact on western nations of allowing in millions of Muslim "refugees"

[CavLancer]

Some no doubt are refugees. By far the most are young men. Some say the crimes committed by these is overblown for political reasons, and highlight the stories of actually helping people in need. Either way, there appears to be a political effect. When Merkel invited in unlimited Muslims, could she not expect that folks might not like it and turn to the other party? So, 'the right' in Europe is making gains. While there might not be a turning over of power this election, perhaps its inevitable as more and more Muslims flow in. Already we see an unexpected result in the US where Trump ran on sending the Muslims out, or some such. Border security and all that. He will be the president. The first effect of the left letting in so many Muslims? Where is the next effect? Should the left abandon the policy, or lose power in more places? Is the influx of Muslims in fact causing more crime? What is your suggesting for stopping the fall of the left and the rise of the right?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

You do know that some right-wing leaders have indicated some willingness to take in some of these refugees, right?

There's a lot of scaremongering going on here in Canada among the right-wing, that it's actually making me dizzy. They need to make up their minds whether Canada is about to be controlled by the Cuban communists or the Syrian (and other) refugees.

 

[Commodore]

I voted for curtailing the influx, but that isn't really an accurate reflection of my position on the matter. I don't have a problem with letting refugees in since we in the West are in the best position to help refugees from any nation due to the wealth and power our nations command. However, I just don't want them being let in without any attempt at screening those who are being let in. We have seen that certain extremist groups are taking advantage of the refugee situation to infiltrate western nations, so I don't think it's unreasonable to do some background checks where possible.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Germany was crazy to ask for so many Muslim refugees, even the strongest EU country social and economic cannot cope with the huge numbers that turned up and because of this will create unforseen problems.
Germany is seeking to deport at least 100,000 per year minimal, those that dont learn German will have benefits reduced, and failure to find a job bar you from citizenship.

Realistically the EU could accept a limited number, of family units into the country per year that it could integrate correctly and provide for.
In the meanwhile, close of Greece borders into the EU and sending euromonies for border control and refugee aid is the right move only the EU acted to slow.

 

[Synobun]

Do you really think western nations are letting in literal millions of refugees?

85,000 refugees entered the US this year, total. 46% of them were Muslim.

There are 360,000 Syrians in Germany, total. This is the country that was at the center of the "migrant crisis".

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Immigration is the best tool the west has in avoiding becoming the next Japan.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Cav specifically mentioned the EU.
Its not like we cannot google this to fact check, its not quite Trumpland.

Number of Refugees to Europe Surges to Record 1.3 Million in 2015

A record 1.3 million migrants applied for asylum in the 28 member states of the European Union, Norway and Switzerland in 2015 – nearly double the previous high water mark of roughly 700,000 that was set in 1992 after the fall of the Iron Curtain and the collapse of the Soviet Union, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of data from Eurostat, the European Union’s statistical agency.

Refugees from Syria numbered 378,000 in 2015, accounting for 29% of all of Europe’s asylum seekers – the highest share of any nation. This was up from 125,000 in 2014 and 49,000 in 2013, helping to drive the recent surge in asylum applications. An additional quarter of asylum seekers in 2015 were from other relatively new origin countries, including 193,000 from Afghanistan (up from 23,000 in 2013 and 39,000 in 2014) and another 127,000 from Iraq (up from 9,000 in 2013 and 15,000 in 2014).

http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/08/02...-europe-surges-to-record-1-3-million-in-2015/

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Do you really think western nations are letting in literal millions of refugees?

Breitbart says it, so it must be true.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

The USA has been hitting an estimated high of 1.7 million immigrants (legal and illegal combined), from all sources, in a given year recently. So, I dunno, EU, what to say. Welcome to our world?

 

[Synobun]

Cav specifically mentioned the EU.
Its not like we cannot google this to fact check, its not quite Trumpland.

Everyone collectively letting in a little over a million refugees is not my idea of "nations letting in millions".

Either way, mismanagement is not a crisis. Closing the border won't change the mismanagement. Reducing influx won't change the mismanagement.

If people want to be racist against Muslims, they can do it openly instead of hiding it behind a supposedly legitimate issue.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

If people want to be racist against Muslims, they can do it openly instead of hiding it behind a supposedly legitimate issue.

You have a point, but you need to express it better. "Muslim" is not a "race".

 

[Synobun]

You have a point, but you need to express it better. "Muslim" is not a "race".

Maybe not by definition, but those who use the rhetoric are specifically referring to those from the Middle East. They're not shaking their fists at those in the Nepalese Mountains or Joe Blow from the steel mill who converted. It's a rather keen bias against that specific area of the world.

 

[Lexicus]

To say that "Muslim is not a race" is such a pathetic and insubstantial objection to the point.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Maybe not by definition, but those who use the rhetoric are specifically referring to those from the Middle East. They're not shaking their fists at those in the Nepalese Mountains or Joe Blow from the steel mill who converted. It's a rather keen bias against that specific area of the world.

I agree, or "people different than self", so foreign to the self they become to a state of xenophobia, as if Arabs aren't even human.

There are people from both sides "calling it racism" as in this well articulated discussion.... http://www.unisa.edu.au/Documents/EASS/MnM/commentaries/sayyid-racism-islamophobia.pdf .. with which I simply disagree.

People don't even know why they're afraid, just that "something might happen to them", but the same likelihood of "something happening to them" occurs in everyday life. Hugh Laurie put it very well that, paraphrased, "ISIS is horrible at their jobs. They're against the West, but the chance of being adversely affected by ISIS if you're in the West is very remote, certainly less chance to be killed by them than by diabetes. Therefore, if ISIS were any good at what they do, they'd have opened multiple franchises of donut and fried food restaurants".

We do it to ourselves. Allowing ourselves to be afraid nets the terrorists their wins.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

To say that "Muslim is not a race" is such a pathetic and insubstantial objection to the point.

I said he has a good point, but he needs to articulate it better than just casting about accusations of racism. Even were we to somehow "correct some value of racism", we wouldn't fix the issue of people being afraid of others for being different and being overly concerned by random and varied pointed news reports. Our own media, and the very fact these terms are thrown around, is the best tool in the arsenal of those who want to make us afraid. Therefore, I consider it "overly liberal use" of terms, in a not-so-pun-y manner.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Everyone collectively letting in a little over a million refugees is not my idea of "nations letting in millions".
Either way, mismanagement is not a crisis. Closing the border won't change the mismanagement. Reducing influx won't change the mismanagement.
If people want to be racist against Muslims, they can do it openly instead of hiding it behind a supposedly legitimate issue.

Germany cannot even provide classes for 1/4 of the Refugees they have taken in, and it is the strongest of all the EU countries.
What kind of solution would your propose ?

 

[Synobun]

Germany cannot even provide classes for 1/4 of the Refugees they have taken in, and it is the strongest of all the EU countries.
What kind of solution would your propose ?

A comprehensive intake program built into the social welfare net that processes entrants, assigns them to social workers, mandates certain metrics (such as housing within a month, employment within 2 months, completion of an ESL course within 8 months), and distributes families using census data so as to not create artificial ghettos, tent cities, or segregated communities. There would be mandatory community volunteering for the first year and a dedicated plan for those who are not compliant.

The issue was never availability of resources. It was opening the doors without thinking through what you were going to feed your party guests with. Now Germany, and other EU nations, are in a position of needing to run out and get something from the local convenience mart so their guests don't go hungry. Fair problem. While the problem would be solved by just telling your party guests to get out and leave, the problem will still exist the next time you have a thought to throw a party. It's best to deal with the mess you made directly and put in place a system that will prevent it from happening again.

History has proven isolationism and closed borders do not work so why bother trying that trick again?

 

[dusters]

Globalisation was supposed to come to something like this sooner or later. Equal opporunities no matter where one is born.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Germany was crazy to ask for so many Muslim refugees, even the strongest EU country social and economic cannot cope with the huge numbers that turned up and because of this will create unforseen problems.
Germany is seeking to deport at least 100,000 per year minimal, those that dont learn German will have benefits reduced, and failure to find a job bar you from citizenship.

Realistically the EU could accept a limited number, of family units into the country per year that it could integrate correctly and provide for.
In the meanwhile, close of Greece borders into the EU and sending euromonies for border control and refugee aid is the right move only the EU acted to slow.

Germany never "asked" for the refugees. Some countries in Europe were unwilling to fulfill their part of the agreement and Germany was the one country that stood up and took in more refugees than others. Just a heads up to you <snip, claims are not acceptances>

Then of course you'd have to remember that not all of those refugees are actually muslims, some % of the are eastern Europeans, which have been declared "safe countries", so those can be sent back without a process and in very little time. Some are also posing as Syrians with fake passports, which also means they'll be sent back. Some will be sent back because of criminial activity, not wanting to assimilate, or other reasons. Some will go back willingly. And then of course there is also the most important fact of not all refugees being accepted in the first place:

In 2015, EU countries offered asylum to 292,540 refugees. In the same year, more than a million migrants applied for asylum

Honestly, I am thoroughly embarrassed about the role that Great Britain and to a lesser extent France played in the refugee crisis. GB are directly at fault, second only to the US, to what has been going on in the middle east, but refuse to clean up the mess they caused. Germany delivers weapons to the UAE, which then falls into ISIS' hands, so I think it is only fair that we accept more refugees than the average EU country.

This is such an incredibly nuanced issue, yet people desperately cling to black and white opinions and wrong facts. Kind of sad if anything.

Germany cannot even provide classes for 1/4 of the Refugees they have taken in, and it is the strongest of all the EU countries.
What kind of solution would your propose ?

I'd like to a see good source. That figure might really be true, I know many voluntary German teachers, but I've never heard 1/4.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

" I " think this concept that, "our country is well as it is, just so, with the variation in idealism with which I feel comfortable" is not so much "racism" as it is "nationalism". I'm not sure how, exactly, nationalism became somehow good or trendy again. The end results are obviously pretty terrible.

I think Jon Stewart was right to tell people, offended by Islamic principle, or the chance 5 Muslims in 5000 might commit crimes, "You don't own this country". In fact, no one group does or can, even those wildly cleaving to the "moralistic left", as evidenced by a Trump election. Maybe it's different in EU countries, maybe nationalism is more prevalent and thus seems to make more sense. It shouldn't, though. It's not really helpful toward anyone's end.

From @10:40