[RD] The impact on western nations of allowing in millions of Muslim "refugees"

Which do you prefer?

  • The left should continue letting in millions of Muslims even if it means losing power.

    Votes: 8 13.3%
  • The left should curtail the influx, cut down a bit.

    Votes: 8 13.3%
  • No more Muslim immigration.

    Votes: 18 30.0%
  • The premise is wrong, the left can bring in millions of more Muslims and the effect will be small.

    Votes: 19 31.7%
  • Who? Someone coming to dinner granny?

    Votes: 7 11.7%

  • Total voters
    60
This point about crime was only one minor point in my original post, until Agent327 questioned it, so I showed it to be true. But yes, overall crime has been going down. Let us hope that this trend continues ad infinitum. However some groups are so vastly over-represented that I suspect it will take quite a while until their crime rates reach native levels.

Not really. If the current trend continues, the problem will be gone pretty soon. It's already a small problem, if you keep in mind the trivially small aggregate numbers. So using language like "VAAAAAAAAAST" over-representation is extremely misleading. They're over-represented at the tip of a needle. Further, the aggregate numbers will continue to diminish, and the world will continue to become safer; but the far-right will not shut up because it's not really about crime. It's about brown people.

Furthermore, at least in Finland, there was a substantial increase in sex crimes in 2016. Now I realize this is only speculation, but I have to wonder if it had anything to do with the refugee crisis

Number 1 rule people should remember, especially on the paranoid right, is that you never make any conclusions based on one year. You look at the long term trends.
 
but the far-right will not shut up because it's not really about crime. It's about brown people.
That may well be true in case of far right.
Yet I'm afraid the data gives ample reason to be concerned also for those of perfectly moderate views.
 
That may well be true in case of far right.
Yet I'm afraid the data gives ample reason to be concerned also for those of perfectly moderate views.
It just mind boggling that simply pointing out the difficulty of adaptation of men coming from very non-liberal environment who view their religious ethic as superior to ours which makes it for them difficult to identify with if not outright disregard our values and consequently makes them more prone to the crime earns you a label of a racist and KKK fan. I call that perverted ideology ignorant of the facts of reality.
 
Germany is taking some correct moves to force integration.
Frankly Germans have been extremely generous with refugees and such moves are overdue

German court rules Muslim girls must take part in swimming lessons
Constitutional judges say schoolgirl cannot be excused mixed classes on grounds of Islamic dress codes

Germany’s highest court has ruled that ultra-conservative Muslim girls must take part in mixed swimming classes at school, finding against an 11-year-old pupil who had argued that even wearing a burkini, or full-body swimsuit, breached Islamic dress codes.

The constitutional court in Karlsruhe on Wednesday rejected an appeal by the girl’s parents that she should be excused from the classes because a burkini did not conform with Islam’s ethic of decency, German media reported.

A spokesman for the court could not be reached for comment.

Germany is in the grip of a heated public debate about the role of Islam in society as it seeks to integrate more than a million mainly Muslim asylum seekers fleeing war and persecution who have entered this year and last.

Chancellor Angela Merkel, whose conservatives have been punished at the polls in regional elections by voters angry at what is seen as her open-door policy, on Tuesday proposed a ban on full-face Muslim veils.

The girl had argued before lower courts that swimming in a burkini revealed the shape of her body, something that goes against her religion.

The constitutional court noted that lower courts had found this to be untrue, and further found there were “no binding rules in Islam” to define appropriate clothing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/07/german-court-rules-against-muslim-girl-in-burkini-case
 
Does Germany not have single-sex schools?
 
Germany is taking some correct moves to force integration.
Frankly Germans have been extremely generous with refugees and such moves are overdue
Are you listening yourself? "Forced" integration? You may as well want to spread democracy with war. Forced integration is bound to backfire in democracy.
 
It just mind boggling that simply pointing out the difficulty of adaptation of men coming from very non-liberal environment who view their religious ethic as superior to ours which makes it for them difficult to identify with if not outright disregard our values and consequently makes them more prone to the crime earns you a label of a racist and KKK fan. I call that perverted ideology ignorant of the facts of reality.
"I'm allowed to say that Muslims are criminals, but you're not allowed to call me racist."
 
I wish I could end on a lighter note, but Germany in 2016 has become quite depressing.

You're free to migrate. It's a human right.

I agree with your conclusion, by the way, but for very different reasons.

Crime rates would have dropped even more, had we not taken in these high crime minorities. As evidenced by the over-representation.

I'm sorry, but it's not. Firstly, you assume 'high crime rate minorities'; this is not supported by statistics. And you can't take over-representation in prison population as evidence to the contrary.

I was talking about immigration in general. As for quest workers specifically, integration wasn't the goal? Even when it turned out they were going to stay?

'Integration' was a matter of public policy. Unfortunately, beyond it being just that, such a thing depends on the population at large. Having said that, these immigrants have integrated: they're part of our societies.

I presented you with all the relevant facts and a solution. Do not take them in. We do not need them. We do not want them. So why on earth should we be forced to have immigration which clearly is not in our best interests? Even if all the newcomers were model citizens (I daresay that is not the case) we still do not need them.

It's not up to you to decide whether 'we' want or need them. People migrate. Migrants aren't model citizens, because nobody is.

As for facts, it is you who seems to be struggling with relevant facts. You seem to be grasping straws to support your untenable position.

Interesting claim. Which is immediately contradicted by:

"Fairy tale". That quote sounded like you questioned the validity of the point about immigrant crime. But feel free to backtrack as you like.

I'm not 'backtracking' anything. That's just your warped perception.
 
Not really. If the current trend continues, the problem will be gone pretty soon. It's already a small problem, if you keep in mind the trivially small aggregate numbers. So using language like "VAAAAAAAAAST" over-representation is extremely misleading. They're over-represented at the tip of a needle. Further, the aggregate numbers will continue to diminish, and the world will continue to become safer; but the far-right will not shut up because it's not really about crime. It's about brown people.
Yes, and I hope that crime will keep going down until there is no crime. Yet statistical trends may continue or they may not. But what I do know is that crime committed by immigrants is pretty high. I've already presented the numbers. And again, I repeat, this was only one of the points against immigration.
Number 1 rule people should remember, especially on the paranoid right, is that you never make any conclusions based on one year. You look at the long term trends.
I just figured, since there was that whole migrant crisis and all, maybe it's relevant. But maybe it was just a coincidence. But you're absolutely right, let's look at long term trends. May I present you Sweden (see attachment). The grey bars represent the amount of granted asylum permits and the red line represents the amount of recorded rapes.

Also, just out of curiosity, how do you define "far-right"? Is everybody who's against immigration "far-right"? Because if that is the definition of far-right, then it seems like a pretty reasonable position to take.

You're free to migrate. It's a human right.

I agree with your conclusion, by the way, but for very different reasons.

I'm sorry, but it's not. Firstly, you assume 'high crime rate minorities'; this is not supported by statistics. And you can't take over-representation in prison population as evidence to the contrary.

'Integration' was a matter of public policy. Unfortunately, beyond it being just that, such a thing depends on the population at large. Having said that, these immigrants have integrated: they're part of our societies.

It's not up to you to decide whether 'we' want or need them. People migrate. Migrants aren't model citizens, because nobody is.

Interesting claim. Which is immediately contradicted by:

I'm not 'backtracking' anything. That's just your warped perception.

Look, Agent327, my good sir, what is it that you even want? What is your argument here? What is it that you want us to discuss? You don't seem to be making many good points here. You seem to be backtracking to points we've already visited, and trying to "refute" them by screaming no. You seem to think this is some sort of quote war where you "win" as long as you can come up with any nonsensical counter-arguments. Sir this is supposed to be a high-class red diamond discussion. I've presented my claim, and I've presented you with the evidence to support those claims. If you choose to ignore that evidence based on no valid counter arguments, then that is your choice.

EDIT: On second thought, let me frame my criticism of your argumentation in a more constructive manner. If you want to disagree with me, that is perfectly fine. What I would like to ask from you, however, is that you come up with solid arguments. If you think that I'm wrong, then don't just say "you're wrong". Explain to me why I'm wrong. Show me where I made the mistake. Show me what the mistake is. Explain to me why it's wrong. Right now it seems to me as if you're just reversing your position as I refute your arguments, and shooting off on tangents in order to try and "one-up" me. If I am truly wrong about this, then please take the effort to explain where did I go wrong and why.
 

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It just mind boggling that simply pointing out the difficulty of adaptation of men coming from very non-liberal environment who view their religious ethic as superior to ours which makes it for them difficult to identify with if not outright disregard our values and consequently makes them more prone to the crime earns you a label of a racist and KKK fan. I call that perverted ideology ignorant of the facts of reality.
Actually, "religious ethic" might be a bit of a red herring here. Let's not forget other markers commonly associated with heightened risk of particular types of criminal behaviour.
Young, male? Check.
Poor, few useful job skills? Check.
Socially isolated, lacking social networks? Check
Traumatized, desensitized to violence? Check...
 
Birgit Kelle, a German journalist, wrote this article this morning, which describes how life has changed for women in Germany. The translation of the excerpts I will post here are my own.


„But nothing happened yet.“ I can't hear this sentence anymore, because I have been hearing it for months. Every time my friends and women in general tell or write me about their experiences with men, who, as we now say, are „not here as long yet.“

It's what they say, somewhat desperately, when I ask, „did you report it to the police?“ No, nothing had happened yet, she got away. It was just discomforting and frightening, and she would try to avoid getting into such a situation next time. What should reporting to the police do anyway?

The neighbour who energetically rang my doorbell and asked me where I had done my self-defense course last spring, she needed one too. She had come from our park into our village in a swivet.

The woman who wanted to gather chestnuts with her son. „But you can't go there anymore.“ She had told me this in the summer, and blamed it on her light summer dress. On herself. Now it was fall, and nothing had changed.

My friend from Munich who doesn't use the subway anymore, because of lingering vociferous groups of men at the stations. My friend from Frankfurt, whose teenage daughters got harrassed in broad daylight on their way to school.

I myself who doesn't wear high-heels anymore, so I am able to run away faster.

The father who almost lost his countenance on the sports field, because his daughter, who was playing football, kept being harrassed by bystanders with obscene remarks.

Nothing has happened yet to any of us, we got away. Into the next subway, the taxi, or arrived at home. We women and girls don't appear in any police statistic, because nothing happened yet. What should we report? That we were scared? That we felt uncomfortable? That our daughters had some bad experiences?

(...)

After the murder of a 19-year-old girl by a refugee, the head of the police union warned about suspecting all refugees. And he is right. But what should that tell me? Don't abuse your fears for political purposes, to cover up your hostility towards foreigners?

(…)

The rising number of „tragic isolated cases“ are insufficiant to appreciate the increasing danger for women in Germany. We wanted to live on as we had been, not restrict ourselves in our way of life. To be role models, brave and self-confident. Open and tolerant. In reality our life has changed drastically, we just don't admit it. Our submission has long started.

And so we women, mothers but also fathers, keep working for the clean statistics, because we don't wait until something happens to us. Or to our children. If we can afford it, we now use the taxi. We drive our children to places they used to get to by bike.

We recommend different clothes. Wasn't there this school director who disadvised girls from wearing short skirts? Our children are not allowed to go to the lake or to the swimming pool anymore. Our overeager obedience is rewarded with clean statistics.

Well done. Now just take women in bikini off the placards to protect their honour. Soon we will have reached our goal, hurray!

One year after New Year's Eve in Cologne our women's policy is a pile of shards that nobody wants to clean up. Things we always took for granted have now come into question. But the outcry doesn't happen.

(...)

Die Unterwerfung hat doch längst begonnen
 
Clearly a case of Der Ewige Muslimisch.

When you use words like "Submission" in reference to another culture or religion, it's an unavoidably racist tactic, you're not even one step away from talking about those perfidious arabs and how they're threatening the sancity of white women and thus the white race, you're pretty damn close to it actually.
 
"I'm allowed to say that Muslims are criminals, but you're not allowed to call me racist."
You can do much better. I am pointing out problems of importing people with non-liberal mindsets who are bound to feel allianated in the new culture. You not only ignore that but seated somewhere above the cloud of a blinding feeling of superiority you think that liberal democracy or simmilar is the best thing so you preach it to everybody. If you think an ideology is something to ignore than you just need to remind yourself that jihad, kamikadze, gulags or holocaust are all means or products of an ideologies just like the destruction inflicted on the countries from which the refugees are on flight.
 
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Clearly a case of Der Ewige Muslimisch.

When you use words like "Submission" in reference to another culture or religion, it's an unavoidably racist tactic, you're not even one step away from talking about those perfidious arabs and how they're threatening the sancity of white women and thus the white race, you're pretty damn close to it actually.
Yeah right, how dare this woman talk openly about how her life has changed. How dare she mention the reasons for the restrictions she has to endure, of things she always took for granted. How dare she not just keep quiet and submit to the new norms of land. What a hideous racist this must be.
 
Yeah right, how dare this woman talk openly about how her life has changed. How dare she mention the reasons for the restrictions she has to endure, of things she always took for granted. How dare she not just keep quiet and submit to the new norms of land. What a hideous racist this must be.

Sounds like she wants a country where she doesn't have to see, talk to or otherwise acknowledge people who racially, ethnically and religiously different from her, a safe space of sorts. I'm sure there enclaves for her in parts of Eastern germany or America.

Also, you seem interested in the plight of women, I have to ask because i'm unsure whether you cared originally or whether you only started adopting it because it became an easy way of attacking immigrants. What's she discussing sounds no different then what happened when Jewish, French and Irish immigrants went into London "oh the streets have changed, oh we can't do this" well guess what; no one questions that now. She should have the maturity to understand the situation that the world currently is in, in regards to Syria etc.

Clearly a case of feels over reals.
 
You're free to migrate. It's a human right.
No. You're free to move out. You have absolutely zero "right" to move in, it's a privilege granted by the nation you're moving in.
"I'm allowed to say that Muslims are criminals, but you're not allowed to call me racist."
Depends if the point of view is supported by facts or not, and is motivated by bias or not.
 
"I'm allowed to say that Muslims are criminals, but you're not allowed to call me racist."

Surely you're able to concieve of other motivations other than racism that might lead one to believe that immigrants with different value systems might be more likely to commit crimes. That's kind of a dumb retort really isn't it?
 
Roses are blue
Poles live in Szczecin
German court rules Muslim girls must take part in swimming lessons
Actually, "religious ethic" might be a bit of a red herring here. Let's not forget other markers commonly associated with heightened risk of particular types of criminal behaviour.
Young, male? Check.
Poor, few useful job skills? Check.
Socially isolated, lacking social networks? Check
Traumatized, desensitized to violence? Check...

That is a good point.

It's also worth nothing that people who fit that profile are also more susceptible to radicalization (whether they're immigrants or refugees or citizens)
 
Germany is taking some correct moves to force integration.
Frankly Germans have been extremely generous with refugees and such moves are overdue

This isn't exactly what I would have chosen as the main point of concern and the first priority to tackle. I would have thought it would be reasonable for a parent to request that their child not take part in mixed swimming lessons, or swimming lessons at all, if they see fit. Even if they're "native". Seems a bit authoritarian.
 
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