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[RD] The impact on western nations of allowing in millions of Muslim "refugees"

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CavLancer, Nov 30, 2016.

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Which do you prefer?

  1. The left should continue letting in millions of Muslims even if it means losing power.

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  2. The left should curtail the influx, cut down a bit.

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. No more Muslim immigration.

    18 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. The premise is wrong, the left can bring in millions of more Muslims and the effect will be small.

    19 vote(s)
    31.7%
  5. Who? Someone coming to dinner granny?

    7 vote(s)
    11.7%
  1. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

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    Not really. If the current trend continues, the problem will be gone pretty soon. It's already a small problem, if you keep in mind the trivially small aggregate numbers. So using language like "VAAAAAAAAAST" over-representation is extremely misleading. They're over-represented at the tip of a needle. Further, the aggregate numbers will continue to diminish, and the world will continue to become safer; but the far-right will not shut up because it's not really about crime. It's about brown people.

    Number 1 rule people should remember, especially on the paranoid right, is that you never make any conclusions based on one year. You look at the long term trends.
     
  2. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    That may well be true in case of far right.
    Yet I'm afraid the data gives ample reason to be concerned also for those of perfectly moderate views.
     
  3. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    It just mind boggling that simply pointing out the difficulty of adaptation of men coming from very non-liberal environment who view their religious ethic as superior to ours which makes it for them difficult to identify with if not outright disregard our values and consequently makes them more prone to the crime earns you a label of a racist and KKK fan. I call that perverted ideology ignorant of the facts of reality.
     
    Oerdin likes this.
  4. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Germany is taking some correct moves to force integration.
    Frankly Germans have been extremely generous with refugees and such moves are overdue

     
  5. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Does Germany not have single-sex schools?
     
  6. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    Are you listening yourself? "Forced" integration? You may as well want to spread democracy with war. Forced integration is bound to backfire in democracy.
     
  7. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    "I'm allowed to say that Muslims are criminals, but you're not allowed to call me racist."
     
    Gucumatz likes this.
  8. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    You're free to migrate. It's a human right.

    I agree with your conclusion, by the way, but for very different reasons.

    I'm sorry, but it's not. Firstly, you assume 'high crime rate minorities'; this is not supported by statistics. And you can't take over-representation in prison population as evidence to the contrary.

    'Integration' was a matter of public policy. Unfortunately, beyond it being just that, such a thing depends on the population at large. Having said that, these immigrants have integrated: they're part of our societies.

    It's not up to you to decide whether 'we' want or need them. People migrate. Migrants aren't model citizens, because nobody is.

    Interesting claim. Which is immediately contradicted by:

    I'm not 'backtracking' anything. That's just your warped perception.
     
  9. Hehehe

    Hehehe Emperor

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    Yes, and I hope that crime will keep going down until there is no crime. Yet statistical trends may continue or they may not. But what I do know is that crime committed by immigrants is pretty high. I've already presented the numbers. And again, I repeat, this was only one of the points against immigration.
    I just figured, since there was that whole migrant crisis and all, maybe it's relevant. But maybe it was just a coincidence. But you're absolutely right, let's look at long term trends. May I present you Sweden (see attachment). The grey bars represent the amount of granted asylum permits and the red line represents the amount of recorded rapes.

    Also, just out of curiosity, how do you define "far-right"? Is everybody who's against immigration "far-right"? Because if that is the definition of far-right, then it seems like a pretty reasonable position to take.

    Look, Agent327, my good sir, what is it that you even want? What is your argument here? What is it that you want us to discuss? You don't seem to be making many good points here. You seem to be backtracking to points we've already visited, and trying to "refute" them by screaming no. You seem to think this is some sort of quote war where you "win" as long as you can come up with any nonsensical counter-arguments. Sir this is supposed to be a high-class red diamond discussion. I've presented my claim, and I've presented you with the evidence to support those claims. If you choose to ignore that evidence based on no valid counter arguments, then that is your choice.

    EDIT: On second thought, let me frame my criticism of your argumentation in a more constructive manner. If you want to disagree with me, that is perfectly fine. What I would like to ask from you, however, is that you come up with solid arguments. If you think that I'm wrong, then don't just say "you're wrong". Explain to me why I'm wrong. Show me where I made the mistake. Show me what the mistake is. Explain to me why it's wrong. Right now it seems to me as if you're just reversing your position as I refute your arguments, and shooting off on tangents in order to try and "one-up" me. If I am truly wrong about this, then please take the effort to explain where did I go wrong and why.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  10. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Actually, "religious ethic" might be a bit of a red herring here. Let's not forget other markers commonly associated with heightened risk of particular types of criminal behaviour.
    Young, male? Check.
    Poor, few useful job skills? Check.
    Socially isolated, lacking social networks? Check
    Traumatized, desensitized to violence? Check...
     
    cardgame and Traitorfish like this.
  11. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    Birgit Kelle, a German journalist, wrote this article this morning, which describes how life has changed for women in Germany. The translation of the excerpts I will post here are my own.


    „But nothing happened yet.“ I can't hear this sentence anymore, because I have been hearing it for months. Every time my friends and women in general tell or write me about their experiences with men, who, as we now say, are „not here as long yet.“

    It's what they say, somewhat desperately, when I ask, „did you report it to the police?“ No, nothing had happened yet, she got away. It was just discomforting and frightening, and she would try to avoid getting into such a situation next time. What should reporting to the police do anyway?

    The neighbour who energetically rang my doorbell and asked me where I had done my self-defense course last spring, she needed one too. She had come from our park into our village in a swivet.

    The woman who wanted to gather chestnuts with her son. „But you can't go there anymore.“ She had told me this in the summer, and blamed it on her light summer dress. On herself. Now it was fall, and nothing had changed.

    My friend from Munich who doesn't use the subway anymore, because of lingering vociferous groups of men at the stations. My friend from Frankfurt, whose teenage daughters got harrassed in broad daylight on their way to school.

    I myself who doesn't wear high-heels anymore, so I am able to run away faster.

    The father who almost lost his countenance on the sports field, because his daughter, who was playing football, kept being harrassed by bystanders with obscene remarks.

    Nothing has happened yet to any of us, we got away. Into the next subway, the taxi, or arrived at home. We women and girls don't appear in any police statistic, because nothing happened yet. What should we report? That we were scared? That we felt uncomfortable? That our daughters had some bad experiences?

    (...)

    After the murder of a 19-year-old girl by a refugee, the head of the police union warned about suspecting all refugees. And he is right. But what should that tell me? Don't abuse your fears for political purposes, to cover up your hostility towards foreigners?

    (…)

    The rising number of „tragic isolated cases“ are insufficiant to appreciate the increasing danger for women in Germany. We wanted to live on as we had been, not restrict ourselves in our way of life. To be role models, brave and self-confident. Open and tolerant. In reality our life has changed drastically, we just don't admit it. Our submission has long started.

    And so we women, mothers but also fathers, keep working for the clean statistics, because we don't wait until something happens to us. Or to our children. If we can afford it, we now use the taxi. We drive our children to places they used to get to by bike.

    We recommend different clothes. Wasn't there this school director who disadvised girls from wearing short skirts? Our children are not allowed to go to the lake or to the swimming pool anymore. Our overeager obedience is rewarded with clean statistics.

    Well done. Now just take women in bikini off the placards to protect their honour. Soon we will have reached our goal, hurray!

    One year after New Year's Eve in Cologne our women's policy is a pile of shards that nobody wants to clean up. Things we always took for granted have now come into question. But the outcry doesn't happen.

    (...)

    Die Unterwerfung hat doch längst begonnen
     
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  12. Applepielookingperson

    Applepielookingperson Chieftain

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    Clearly a case of Der Ewige Muslimisch.

    When you use words like "Submission" in reference to another culture or religion, it's an unavoidably racist tactic, you're not even one step away from talking about those perfidious arabs and how they're threatening the sancity of white women and thus the white race, you're pretty damn close to it actually.
     
  13. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    You can do much better. I am pointing out problems of importing people with non-liberal mindsets who are bound to feel allianated in the new culture. You not only ignore that but seated somewhere above the cloud of a blinding feeling of superiority you think that liberal democracy or simmilar is the best thing so you preach it to everybody. If you think an ideology is something to ignore than you just need to remind yourself that jihad, kamikadze, gulags or holocaust are all means or products of an ideologies just like the destruction inflicted on the countries from which the refugees are on flight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  14. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    Yeah right, how dare this woman talk openly about how her life has changed. How dare she mention the reasons for the restrictions she has to endure, of things she always took for granted. How dare she not just keep quiet and submit to the new norms of land. What a hideous racist this must be.
     
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  15. Applepielookingperson

    Applepielookingperson Chieftain

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    Sounds like she wants a country where she doesn't have to see, talk to or otherwise acknowledge people who racially, ethnically and religiously different from her, a safe space of sorts. I'm sure there enclaves for her in parts of Eastern germany or America.

    Also, you seem interested in the plight of women, I have to ask because i'm unsure whether you cared originally or whether you only started adopting it because it became an easy way of attacking immigrants. What's she discussing sounds no different then what happened when Jewish, French and Irish immigrants went into London "oh the streets have changed, oh we can't do this" well guess what; no one questions that now. She should have the maturity to understand the situation that the world currently is in, in regards to Syria etc.

    Clearly a case of feels over reals.
     
  16. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Are you referring to the Norman conquest?
    That might be a tad too dramatic comparison. :lol:
     
  17. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    No. You're free to move out. You have absolutely zero "right" to move in, it's a privilege granted by the nation you're moving in.
    Depends if the point of view is supported by facts or not, and is motivated by bias or not.
     
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  18. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Surely you're able to concieve of other motivations other than racism that might lead one to believe that immigrants with different value systems might be more likely to commit crimes. That's kind of a dumb retort really isn't it?
     
  19. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    German court rules Muslim girls must take part in swimming lessons
    That is a good point.

    It's also worth nothing that people who fit that profile are also more susceptible to radicalization (whether they're immigrants or refugees or citizens)
     
  20. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    This isn't exactly what I would have chosen as the main point of concern and the first priority to tackle. I would have thought it would be reasonable for a parent to request that their child not take part in mixed swimming lessons, or swimming lessons at all, if they see fit. Even if they're "native". Seems a bit authoritarian.
     

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