1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[RD] The impact on western nations of allowing in millions of Muslim "refugees"

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CavLancer, Nov 30, 2016.

?

Which do you prefer?

  1. The left should continue letting in millions of Muslims even if it means losing power.

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  2. The left should curtail the influx, cut down a bit.

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. No more Muslim immigration.

    18 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. The premise is wrong, the left can bring in millions of more Muslims and the effect will be small.

    19 vote(s)
    31.7%
  5. Who? Someone coming to dinner granny?

    7 vote(s)
    11.7%
  1. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
  2. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    7,072
    Location:
    -
    You cant use word backward in a calm and rational manner? And I dont agree with you its "baseless" at all. Some EU countries are backwards compared to the others in some aspects. Thats just a fact. Just like its a fact that Iraq, Lybia and Syria countries which were ruined with the help of the more progressive West were actually ahead some of the western countries in some aspects. This oversensitivness seema to me like some masked feeling of superiority.
     
  3. Funky

    Funky Emperor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,291
    It depends on what you mean with conservative! When I use the term "conservative" in regard to Islam, I am refering to the values which are typically held in the traditional strands of Islam. These happen to include things that our secular, modern societies have overcome and now reject, like inequality between the sexes, derogatory views of homosexuals, or religious rules trumping our secular laws. I think both the terms "backward" and "illiberal" are appropriate to describe such values. "Backward" not so much as a negative qualifier, but as an indicator that we have moved beyond these things, and promoting them would be moving backward, as in toward the past. And "illiberal", well, because they are illiberal!

    Anyway, I'm out. I don't see how it is possible to have a meaningful conversation about the impact of Muslim migrants on our society if we are not allowed to acknowledge and discuss basic facts and trends within the Muslim population.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  4. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    7,072
    Location:
    -
    Well there is definitely a degree of what you can call a barbarian behaviour which is why many of the recent migrants are over represented in crime.
    But to corrupt, invade and destroy other countries out of greed is equaly if not more barbarian.
     
  5. Applepielookingperson

    Applepielookingperson Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    25
    You do realise refering to other races/ethnicities and even religions is a form of racism and bigotry, that was (and still is) used to justify conflict and mistreatment?
     
  6. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    7,072
    Location:
    -
    "Refering" is certainly not a racism or bigotry. You can try to justify almost anything with the most noble ideals in mind but by avoiding truth and reality you can never expose the false justifications. For that you have to see and call things for what they are and act accordingly.
     
    Oerdin likes this.
  7. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,617
    Location:
    Scotland
    And again, I'll say, people don't vote for some fascistoid defective like Trump, Le Pen or whoever runs UKIP this week because they're "de-sensitised", they do it because they're the kind of person who looks at Mussolini and thinks, boy, it's a shame about the uniform.

    Because Europeans are known for their history of peace and cooperation.
     
  8. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    7,072
    Location:
    -
  9. Hehehe

    Hehehe Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,391
    Location:
    Finland
    Sir, that is such a crude strawman argument, that I have to ask, do you seriously believe that? Do you honestly believe that there are absolutely no legitimate reasons to be against immigration?
    Yes indeed, European history is full of wars (you didn't have to go through all that trouble to find all of those links).

    On the topic of Islamic values, here are some of the beliefs held by Muslims all over the Islamic world, as compiled by Pew research center. Please note that western Muslims were not polled. I would assume that they tend to hold significantly more liberal values.
    Spoiler :

    Islamic_values.jpg
     
    Oerdin likes this.
  10. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Messages:
    22,089
    I personally believe it's fairly intellectually bankrupt to think Muslims (or any demographic, really) should have a natural belief that falls in line with ours when our own beliefs were instilled in us through our childhoods and education.

    It's the same reason why the majority of people thought having slaves was a-okay in the past. They were taught that it was.

    The chances of a significant percentage of "liberal" followers are low when you are considered dangerously rebellious for falling within that group.

    Nobody of sound mind thinks that people originating from these locations should have free reign with their beliefs in our western societies. You can encourage moral progression without putting up a wall and telling everyone that looks a certain way to take a hike. Spend less time worrying about what they'll do to us and more time worrying about what you're doing to them. You cannot demonize someone for holding a certain belief when you do everything in your power to ensure they keep it.
     
  11. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    13,370
    Location:
    Facing my computer.
    Well, that's your opinion. I can see from where you come (I have a hard time accepting that people could vote for Trump, Berlusconi or Bush and not be completely stupid, despite facts proving the contrary), but I certainly don't agree with your conclusion, especially as its pretty simplistic and only go for one especially excessive criterium.
    I've seen, to my own surprise, just how much people can shift when anger/annoyance rise - I've witnessed some frankly weird (to the point of borderline nonsensical) combinations of feelings and decisions due to the mix of anger, ideals and opinions.
     
  12. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    Moderator Action: Just as the unsavoury beliefs of a minority of Muslims do not give you license to tar all Muslims with the same brush, these insinuations that all Trump voters are either closet fascists or stupid are not welcome. Express your disagreements with respect or not at all.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  13. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    13,370
    Location:
    Facing my computer.
    Or just don't cut short a sentence, completely changing its meaning ?
     
  14. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    42,965
    Location:
    Chicago Sunroofing
    Wearing a veil is often largely a vague personal choice, and is not associated with backward beliefs even remotely the way anti-religious bigotry is.
     
  15. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    5,265
    Religion is a subjective experience, so there is really no "islamic context". There is a middle eastern context, where reactionary institution still have power. The institutions can be resisted or torn down without demeaning or attacking the Muslims or their faith, much the same way as we can ridicule reactionary Jews without demeaning the ordinary Jews.

    Neither does the veil, really. I mean, you can assume certain things within reason, but there is no reason why a head veiled woman can't be a liberal feminist, for example. Burka wearing people are probably quite conservative, but even so. Assuming that veiled people are reactionary Islamists is most certainly bigotry.



    Ok, so what's the big worry? If civil society institutions in Europe have torn down reactionary religion among Christians, why can't it do the same among Muslims?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  16. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2006
    Messages:
    16,102
    Location:
    In orbit
    Unlike your projection into the future 2 or 3 centuries from now.

    Good. No need to ask me about it then.

    If countries like the US seem unstable, that's for political reasons, not because of massive immigration.

    Like in Spain after 1492? That worked out grand.

    I don't see how persons who don't believe in God can be termed Christians.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
    Valka D'Ur likes this.
  17. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,617
    Location:
    Scotland
    No, I don't believe there are any legitimate or even particularly coherent reasons to be "against immigration". In principle, a person could be critical of a certain set of immigration policies without prejudice or bigotry- never seems to work out that way, but it's plausible- but to declare oneself "against immigration", categorically and without qualification? That speaks for itself.

    The point isn't just the fact that Europeans have had wars. If you check the links, I was emphasising the kind of wars: continent-spanning wars fought over deeply held principles of faith, political ideology or dynastic right. It's not simply that tin-can warlords used to knock each other around from time to time, it's that European history is soaked in the blood of Europeans spilled by other Europeans, that the greatest historical menace to Europeans has been precisely their co-continentalists, and that until very recently, Europeans have well understood that, and outside of certain short-lived and largely forgotten episodes of religious hysteria, have always found their most hated enemies in other Europeans.

    "European civilisation" is something we claim to uphold when attempting to justify a shoddy attitude towards the outside world. It has never, for a moment, prevented us from butchering each other in the name of some cause or king.



    Hm.

    Moderator Action: Please do not discuss moderator actions in the public forum - I have removed PDMA here and issued points. FP
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2016
  18. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    10,427
    Location:
    Estonia
    That's a bit like an American or Brit asking "Hey, why worry about a world war? We won two of them!"
     
  19. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    7,072
    Location:
    -
    I dont see really anything much special here. The Africans are slaughtering each other to this day, North Americans natives were embroiled in constant fights, the more southern American tribes are famous for their cruelty, and so are the Asian nomads. Chinas population went from 200 mil. to 5! mil. during the constant wars of warring kingdoms and some of the slaughters in India have been quite famous.
    And yes Christianity and the Greco-Roman example has a great deal to do with the fact that the wars and killings wernt conducted on even bigger scale.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  20. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    Well, both groups believe in demonstrably false and incredibly silly beliefs... :mischief:
     

Share This Page