[RD] The impact on western nations of allowing in millions of Muslim "refugees"

[warpus]

I don't know about you, since you come from Canada (correct me if I am wrong and confused you with an other poster), which is a colonial artificial country

Every country is "artificial"

 

[yung.carl.jung]

The greatest of all Greeks, overshadowing even Alexander, was born in modern day Turkey. Always remember: Everyone but you is a barbarian!

 

[christos200]

I come from Belgium. Either way, my opinion isn't changed in value because of where I was born.

Never said that. I just say that people coming from countries which have civic nationalism cannot understand the ethnic nationalism of European states. Note that by nationalism I mean national identity, not the far right movement.

Surely, my opinion matters as much as yours even if I am not of superior Greek blood?

Nice strawman. Unfortunately for you, I never said that Greeks are superior to the other peoples. I even said that legal migration in order to solve the demographic problem, while not my favorable choice, should be on the table.

Regardless, what are Greeks? Do you believe humans spontaneously sprouted from the soils of the Earth in your glorious Athens and Isle of Lesbos?

Nope. They came from Ethiopia. Greeks are a nation. I reject the notion of the left that since nations did not exist in the ancient past, that they should not exist as a notion now. I also reject the left's argument that nations should not exist. Except for social stability, nationalism (note: as national identity, not ultra-nationalism) has other benefits too.

What are the exact traits and components of a Greek?

Greek language and Greek national identity I would say. That means that legal immigrants can be Hellenized and become Greeks, that's why I did not put it out of the table. I just said what would be my most favorable solution, not what should be the only solution to the problem.

Every country is "artificial"

True. I guess I misphased what I wanted to say. Mea Culpa. What I meant is that Canada and other colonial countries have civic, not ethnic, nationalism.

The greatest of all Greeks, overshadowing even Alexander, was born in modern day Turkey. Always remember: Everyone but you is a barbarian!

Nice strawman. When did I say that foreigners are barbarians?

 

[Synobun]

Greeks are a nation. I reject the notion of the left that since nations did not exist in the ancient past, that they should not exist as a notion now.

Greek language and Greek national identity I would say.

So Greeks are a nation of people who want to be Greek and speak the Greek language? No other requirements? Since just before your words implied that being Greek was something quite unobtainable for most who enter the arbitrary borders of the country.

Sounds pretty easy to be Greek. Τώρα είμαι πολίτης!

 

[christos200]

Well, one has to move legally here, gain citizenship and pay taxes too but that is the civic part. If you consider yourself Greek, speak Greek and you are ready to defend Greece in times of crisis, then you are Greek too.

 

[Akka]

I think in the greater scheme of things I'd rather have a mixed population with a few stragglers that are filled with angst than I would have a homogeneous society of coincidentally white people because of some weird notion of "social unrest".

Why ? Is there something inherently superior in people from other parts of the world ? Or are social unrest and friction a goal worthy to be pursued by itself ?

 

[Synobun]

Why ? Is there something inherently superior in people from other parts of the world ?

On the contrary, I don't think there's something inherently special about people who've been in one place longer than another group of people. Everyone can play the "I was here longer than you" game. Everyone loses. There will always be someone with some ancestor who may have vaguely spent some time in that general region a day or two earlier than the rest.

 

[Lexicus]

I think societies gain strength from diversity. The notion that diversity leads to 'social unrest' is thinly veiled white supremacy. It's also nonsense.

 

[christos200]

I think societies gain strength from diversity. The notion that diversity leads to 'social unrest' is thinly veiled white supremacy. It's also nonsense.

'Everything I do not like is white supremacy' is the new version of 'everyone I do not like is Hitler'?

Spoiler Pic :

 

[Akka]

On the contrary, I don't think there's something inherently special about people who've been in one place longer than another group of people. Everyone can play the "I was here longer than you" game. Everyone loses. There will always be someone with some ancestor who may have vaguely spent some time in that general region a day or two earlier than the rest.

You completely dodged the question and just tried to deflect the point. You said you'd prefer a mixed population, so it means there is something better with people from elsewhere, and I'm asking what.

I think societies gain strength from diversity.

That's a buzzword which is constantly repeated. I've yet to see an actual argument for why it's true.

The notion that diversity leads to 'social unrest' is thinly veiled white supremacy. It's also nonsense.

And we're supposed to be surprised that you ignore reality to replace it with your fantasies and accuse everyone not sharing your opinions to be fascist/racist ?
Because that's just the usual broken record, nothing really new.

 

[Synobun]

You completely dodged the question and just tried to deflect the point. You said you'd prefer a mixed population, so it means there is something better with people from elsewhere, and I'm asking what.

It's unfortunate you couldn't understand my post. However, since you're asking for a direct answer to your question: more mixed people means less people belly-aching about there being different people in their midst. Less belly-aching allows us to focus on things that matter like poverty, equal opportunity, and the betterment of our quality of life as opposed to frantically checking the birth certificate of your neighbour to make sure they aren't "one of them".

 

[warpus]

Diversity or a lack of it don't really determine whether a country is going to have "unrest".

Poland is incredibly homogenous and Canada is incredibly multi-ethnic. Both countries are incredibly stable.

Diversity can be a variable in the equation, but it doesn't determine if the country is going to have problems or not.

 

[Kyriakos]

RD material

Anyway, no, i happen to be always right, even when pro-left.

 

[Lexicus]

'Everything I do not like is white supremacy' is the new version of 'everyone I do not like is Hitler'?

Spoiler Pic :

Right, but in this instance it's white supremacy that I don't like. The kind of white supremacy that attempts to disguise itself by coming up with an excuse for why we don't want brown foreigners, but fails because the excuse is actually just as white supremacist as saying outright that we don't want the dusky races coming in.

 

[Akka]

Right, but in this instance it's white supremacy that I don't like. The kind of white supremacy that attempts to disguise itself by coming up with an excuse for why we don't want brown foreigners, but fails because the excuse is actually just as white supremacist as saying outright that we don't want the dusky races coming in.

Yeah, save for the fact you see "white supremacist" in everything that isn't just agreeing with your opinions. I guess it's harder to see the totalitarian in oneself than in others, straw and beam and all that.

 

[Synobun]

Yeah, save for the fact you see "white supremacist" in everything that isn't just agreeing with your opinions.

Do I? I don't recall calling anyone a white supremacist.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Never said that. I just say that people coming from countries which have civic nationalism cannot understand the ethnic nationalism of European states. Note that by nationalism I mean national identity, not the far right movement.

There is a commonly made error here that has to be pointed out. The idea that those who are different, in this case "coming from countries which have civic nationalism" can't or don't understand is false. We do not share, and may sometimes actively disapprove, but that does not require failure on our part to understand. For my part I am well aware that Europe is full of people who can't get over their petty tribal past, and understand that your behavior as nations is frequently driven by it.

 

[Hehehe]

As a preface, I want to say that I'm not trying to justify as to why the right wing is making such a meteoric rise. I am trying to explain it. I take no moral stand one way or the other, I am simply stating why, in my opinion, the right wing is surging in such a way.

Right now, most European countries are suffering from mass unemployment. Not all, but I daresay most. What this means is that we have a huge amount of people unable to find work; the economy, in its current state, simply does not need any more work force, and especially not unskilled workforce. In practice, this means that a huge amount of people are unemployed, despite wanting to find work. The refugees that come in, tend to be mostly unskilled labor, and they are in direct competition with the native working class. This, combined with the general economic situation, means that the refugees tend to end up on welfare. However, given the struggling economy, many countries are having trouble coping with the situation. Some are running deficits, others are cutting welfare, while some are doing both.

So, to recap, we have mass unemployment, people are struggling to find work. To make matters worse, politicians are bringing in more people to compete for jobs and to depress wages. Since there aren't enough jobs, a lot of people, refugees and natives alike, end up on welfare. To cope with the costs, countries cut welfare, upon which a record number of people now have to rely on.

More specifically it is the working class that is being hurt by this migration: they are the ones who have to compete for jobs. They are the ones who have to live in these poor neighborhoods where immigrant crime is high. They are mostly shouldering the costs of the migration. It's no wonder that the working class has been the one most vocally against immigration. In both the US and Europe, I believe it is the working class that forms the biggest voter base for these right wing "populists". In exchange for shouldering the costs of the immigration, the working class gets the unending scorn and despise of the elites whenever they dare to complain. The working class, which tends to vote right, gets unending accusations of being uneducated racist idiots. Yet at the same time these same elites wonder why the working class hates them so much; they seem to be unable to comprehend as to where all this anger towards the elites is coming from.

A lot of people are unhappy with the situation, and in a way, I can understand why. To make matters worse, unfortunately, there are no easy solutions. I don't think the economy is going to get better anytime soon. In fact, I'm afraid it might get worse. In hard times people sometimes have to make hard choices. Elites chose refugees over the working class, working class chose right wing over the elites.

 

[Akka]

Do I? I don't recall calling anyone a white supremacist.

Oops, sorry, wrong quote. I was talking to Lexicus. I'm going to edit that.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Couldn't the same amount of money spent on welcoming immigrants be spend on providing incentives for the natives to have more children? That would solve the problem and not cause social unrest.

Nobody wants to have children. Lots of polls have showed satisfaction and desire to do so have gone down significantly. Maybe you could prop that up with more welfare policies and child support policies, but at the end of the day, young adults in the developed world are continuing to prioritize other things more and more than they are children, and they are things that having children makes much more difficult.