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[RD] The impact on western nations of allowing in millions of Muslim "refugees"

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CavLancer, Nov 30, 2016.

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Which do you prefer?

  1. The left should continue letting in millions of Muslims even if it means losing power.

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  2. The left should curtail the influx, cut down a bit.

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. No more Muslim immigration.

    18 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. The premise is wrong, the left can bring in millions of more Muslims and the effect will be small.

    19 vote(s)
    31.7%
  5. Who? Someone coming to dinner granny?

    7 vote(s)
    11.7%
  1. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    Feel free to respond whenever you want. Until then, allow me to give you some further food for thought by going into some of the things you wrote in your last post directed at Hehehe. I should point out that I agree with some of your observations, like the unneeded pathos and the dumb title of the email. But saying where I disagree is more fun!

    First of all, I wouldn't be so quick to label the AfD as a "far-right" party. AfD voters come from the entire political spectrum, including SPD, PdL and the Greens (albeit most come from CDU). I myself will be voting for the AfD, and I have always considered myself as being on the left, although meanwhile I am not sure what the terms "left" and "right" even mean anymore. The main reasons I will vote for the AfD are their propagation of more direct democracy (a traditionally left stance), the fact that they are the only party with a common sense approach to immigration, the fact that they are the only party to talk honestly about Islam, and their striving to correct the overhasty renunciation of nuclear energy. I don't agree with everything they stand for, and, as in all parties, there are figures with dubious opinions and rhetoric. But all in all, in comparison to other parties I think they base their positions more on facts and on what is good for the German people, rather than on ideology or on what may seem good for the party in the short run. I know many AfD voters who think just like I do, who definitely wouldn't consider themselves "far-right". That other parties and the mainstream media have tried to denigrate the AfD in this way instead of discussing the content of their party program says more about them than it does about the AfD.

    Second, while I don't know this particular politician, and I certainly wouldn't say some of the things the way he does, that doesn't mean that we can dismiss everything he says. For example, his citing the Spiegel that "Muslims make up only 9% of Berlin's population, yet account for 70% of young repeat criminals" is an utterly shocking fact and addresses a serious problem. We cannot just ignore this fact because we don't like the party the politican is affiliated to.

    Third, while I'd be hesitant to ascribe the crime problems we see in every larger city in Germany to "Islamic culture", the correlation between Muslims and crime cannot go unnoticed. To me, the issue is not so much that Islam promotes crime, rather that adherence to Islam impedes on integration and promotes an "us vs them"-mentality. The resulting lack of integration into society then leads to an increased crime rate.

    Fourth, the term "no go zones" is commonly misunderstood. The issue is not that you will get lynched the moment you enter such an area. Rather it is increasingly problematic to visit (let alone live) in such an area if you do not belong to the tribe and don't abide to the rules. E.g. there are certain areas in many German cities which are dangerous to walk for girls and women if they are unveiled, or where you quickly notice that you are not accepted, reactions ranging from suspicious looks to open hostility. Crimes in such areas are swiftly covered up by the residents, making it difficult if not impossible for the police to investigate. Instead sharia courts often take care of the administration, past the German justice system. Such parallel societies exist only in Islamic contexts - and they are visible throughout the cities of Western Europe.

    Fifth, I am happy that you acknowledge that the far-left, in form of the Antifa and other groups is causing huge problems for the police, and are a much bigger danger than the right. This however does not attenuate the problems of growing Islamic parallel societies and high crime rates among Muslims.

    To conclude, I don't consider the problem to be multiculturalism in its literal sense, but rather biculturalism. All other cultures get along just fine with each other. It is only one culture that causes problems, and always has caused problems whenever and wherever it has spread to. The issue, to put it in the broadest sense, is one of the civilized world (including many moderate Muslims) against traditional Islam. To bring it back to the thread title, considering that many of the problems related to Islam already existed before 2015, considering that we were unable to integrate large parts of the Muslim population into our society, considering that Merkel herself had admitted in 2011 that multiculturalism had failed, it seems like a completely idiotic thing to do to bring in millions of more Muslims, unvetted, from the most backward areas of the world.
     
    christos200 and Hehehe like this.
  2. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

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    No it isn't, because the aggregate numbers are absolutely trivial. There are hardly any young repeat criminals in Europe anymore; there are some in the immigrant populations, but not disproportionately in the global picture, so to speak. It isn't really a case of immigrants being hyper-criminal super predators, but it's a case of European populations having extremely low crime rates, the decline of which began in the 90s and hasn't stopped since.

    These alarmist talking points need to die. Another one that I recently encountered is the claim that prisons in Europe are "overflowing" because of the refugee crisis. Maybe true; but again, the reason for this might be in the fact that prisons in Europe have been downsized for years now, because crime has collapsed. A sudden shock of a disjointed population inflow will inevitably cause more demand for prison space.

    The answer to the "immigrant crime problem" is simple: I don't care, and neither should you. It most likely will never effect you; and crime used to be vastly worse --- and I mean vastly worse -- as recently as the 90s. In Sweden, as in Germany, the crime rates have fallen even as immigration has increased, which is why the alarmist narratives never speak of the aggregate numbers. The underlying downward trends are large enough to swamp any diminutive crime rate increases from immigrants.

    Whatever we are doing has brought down crime rates in almost all populations in Europe; there is no reason to assume that it won't eventually bring down such rates among immigrants. If it's not broken, don't fix it. We don't need a new policy for handling immigrant crime.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
    trader/warrior likes this.
  3. Hehehe

    Hehehe Emperor

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    Let me just say, I don't agree with everything that the email says, I just consider it a starting point.
    First of all, you have in no way refuted what he said. Second, did it ever occur to you that perhaps he is a member of AfD precisely because the crime statistics are what they are, rather than the other way around?
    Gangs or not, not are all people equal when it comes to per-capita crime statistics. Also, for the record, if I was in charge, I would not allow bikers, neo-nazis or the mafia to immigrate here either.
    I believe Funky addressed this pretty well in his post. I would just like to add one more thing. Who are the people who form those violent gangs in Chicago? Are they white Americans? I'm not making claims here one way or the other, just curious.
    Yes, and I believe we both completely agree on this. I, for one, absolutely condemn violence against police, whether that violence is instigated by right wing groups or by left wing groups.
    Very well, let's have a handy infograph (see attachment)
    You have in no way refuted what he said, so far you have only called him names. Also, I do not in any way condone antisemitism. If that post had antisemitic references, I completely missed them since I do not speak German.

    I admit, I might be a little out of my element here, talking about German crime statistics, since I'm not German. But what I do know very well are Finnish crime statistics, and oh boy do they reveal some interesting things (spoiler alert: people from different parts of the world seem to commit different amounts of crime).
     

    Attached Files:

  4. GoodEnoughForMe

    GoodEnoughForMe n.m.s.s.

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    Thanks. And sadly, the political will to construct such a system in the US is largely lacking.
     
  5. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    In Canada the word "natives" refers to the aboriginal people here. As for the rest having incentives, by all means, help figure out economically viable, family-friendly, job-friendly parental leave (money & time for both mother and father), plus genuinely affordable child care (since even lemonade stands have to be licensed nowadays, never mind babysitters), and a host of other reasons that couples put off having children, and I'm sure people will get right on it. I have a valid excuse that I'm over 50. I'm sure you understand.

    And yet there are some who want Muslim-only condos, Muslim-only affordable/disabled housing, etc.

    Why the proposed Montreal-area Muslim housing development goes against Islamic values

    One paragraph that caught my attention was this one:
    No real definition of "modesty" or "half-naked" were given. Would they object to a woman walking around in public wearing a T-shirt and shorts? Would they expect all women there to cover their hair? And why don't the men have to be modest?

    This is one of the times where I tend to side with the "you're in Canada now, and you don't get to dictate what people wear, as long as they conform to municipal, provincial, and federal law."

    A "colonial artificial country"??? Oh, reeeaaaaallllly! :rolleyes:

    As warpus said, all countries are "artificial" (as in they are human-created). But your tone says that we're not a real country, that we're some fake thing like a corner of the house where a bunch of miscellaneous things were thrown and forgotten about.

    If Canada were emptied of the immigrants, nobody would be living here except for the aboriginal people. I'm sure most of them would be pleased if the rest of us all packed up and went back to our ancestral lands, if we knew where that was; I do, but many don't by this point. Some European countries' populations would grow in a hell of a hurry - even Greece.

    Yes, we were a colony, and still retain many colonial ties. It's a part of our heritage and culture, and I don't see how that's something to denigrate, as if most other countries don't also have colonial pasts, either as colonies or colonizers.

    Oda Nobunaga, who is from Quebec, would understand your notion of "ethnic nationalism". We get into an argument about it at least once a year, bicker for a few posts, make up, and wish each other "Happy St-Jean Baptiste Day" /"Happy Canada Day."

    For a very long time, our federal census asked people about ethnic background, and there was no option to say "Canadian." As the decades went by, more people got frustrated, because they either felt little ties (if any) to where their ancestors came from, or they honestly didn't know. So they demanded that StatsCan include an option for "Canadian" and now there is one. They see themselves as ethnically Canadian, with no ethnic ties to anywhere else.

    Who said social unrest and friction are goals to be pursued? Nobody. But those of us who live in multicultural societies are used to it, and generally find that the positives far outweigh any negatives. I haven't taken a census of the building I live in, but based on observations, there are people from over half a dozen countries here (probably more), and I'm not bothered to hear French and other languages spoken by my neighbors. As long as they can speak English when necessary and follow the rules, it's not a problem.

    Honestly, I'd be bored silly in a country where everyone was the same. Seeking out people of different countries to talk to and learn from (and teach about my part of the world) is a huge reason why I've stayed here on CFC for so many years.

    If we all went back to our original ancestral place, eastern Africa would get awfully crowded.

    Diverse music, food, festivals, languages, learning about various customs, picking and choosing which ones to enjoy or even incorporate into one's own traditions... I read something once about a Canadian man (don't recall his ethnic background; it was not northern European) who went to Africa to work on some project, and he started feeling homesick. So his family sent him some tapes of Irish and bagpipe music, and he immediately felt better. That's a normal Canadian response.

    When you only get ideas and concepts from one source, you may be overlooking the solution that could be proposed from elsewhere. That's one of the strengths of diversity.

    Exactly.

    Well, we will be as long as Trump-loving Kellie Leitch and her ilk don't get back into government. She's really pushing the anti-Muslim agenda, while spouting trademark Harper-type deflections to try to make people think she's just really, genuinely concerned about "Canadian values." Then she just doubles down in the next interview, all the while pretending she hasn't just said the divisive, antagonistic things she just said. She'd fail her own "Canadian values" test in a heartbeat.
     
  6. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

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    Sure, but this is a reality of every immigrant culture. Many Chinese and Indian immigrants want the same in Vancouver and Ukrainian immigrants wanted it in the Prairies last century. I don't really blame them for it, we all want to be around those who make us comfortable, but I am also inclined to agree with you that they just need to deal with it. It's less to do with where they come from and more that what they want breaks the law and the principle of equal opportunity. You can find plenty of Canadian-born folks with similar views. I don't believe it's limited to certain foreigners.
     
  7. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

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    I would say that it has less to do with migrants and more to do with the left. The politically correct left which plays identity politics is against the assimilation of immigrants and condemns it and supports the upholding of foreign, and sometime backwards, customs. I would expect migrants coming to Greece, or other European countries, to accept European values, in the same way a European migrant in the UAE would accept the local values there. Instead, the left tries to block assimilation and defend backward customs in the name of diversity.
     
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  8. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

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    Are the left not part of Europe? What makes your values European but theirs not?
     
  9. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

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    Read again my post. I make it quite clearly that I refer to the (politically correct) left's insistence on defending backward foreign customs instead of supporting the adoption of European values by migrants and assimilation (which would make migration positive and welcome).
     
  10. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

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    I did read your post. You said, and I quote, "I would expect migrants coming to Greece to accept European values".

    What are European values? If you're opposing the values of an entire vague demographic, a demographic that lives in the same Europe you do, then you clearly have a different idea about what European values are. What are they?
     
  11. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    We're fundamentally in agreement, I think.

    And of course it's not specifically Muslim immigrants. Most major North American cities have "Little _____" communities or "Chinatown" areas, or so I've read. My own grandmother grew up in a predominantly Swedish-speaking farming community here in Alberta, and my grandfather immigrated from Sweden, settled there, and became part of that community when he married my grandmother. For most of their adult lives together they kept in touch with the Swedish friends they had there, and one family in particular were frequent visitors. Of course they had other friends, and multiculturalism was seen as a positive thing in my family. The thing I would change, if I could, would be for my grandfather to teach me Swedish. He said he didn't want to, because he'd left that behind when he came to Canada, but he did unbend a bit after I kept asking him to translate the letters and cards he got from his sister. So I did learn to read a bit of the language, but nowhere near as much as I'd liked to have done.

    The thing about the all-Muslim buildings is that when you exclude people on the basis of religion and ethnic origin, those are Charter violations, and most Canadians tend to disapprove of such things.

    You took a poll, did you, of ALL left-wing voters? It's not an either/or, black/white thing.

    I get accused of being a "pot head" because I've stated that I wasn't displeased that the Liberals won the federal election in Canada last year. The truth is that I'm a left-wing voter who did not vote Liberal, I'm not in favor of legalizing marijuana except for medical purposes, but the Liberals were a far better choice than the dictator-in-making we just managed to toss out.

    It would be a beneficial thing if you would stop looking at the "left" as one large group of people who all think the same. We don't, no matter which continent you're talking about. I have never, and will never, vote for a right-wing party, yet I'd also never approve of sharia law and I'm frankly creeped out by women wearing niqabs. Yes, they're allowed to wear them in Canada, but it tends to make non-Muslims feel really uncomfortable.
     
  12. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

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    That's why I say "politically correct" left instead of just saying left. I am talking about regressive left only.
     
  13. west india man

    west india man Immortal

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    What makes vaguely-defined European ''values'' any better than what you seem to consider to be barbarian ones?
     
  14. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    Define "regressive left." There are some people who consider ALL left-wing voters as "regressive."

    Funny how they call others by what they are themselves, since it's obvious that they would be happier living in the year 1950 at the latest, and preferably a century earlier before all these "other people" got the vote, property rights, and legal status as "persons."
     
  15. schlaufuchs

    schlaufuchs La Femme Moderne

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    So would you consider "politically correct" people born in Greece, holding Greek passports, speaking Greek, and claiming Greek ethnicity to not be Greeks?
     
  16. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    That seems rather accurate then. Oh, and by the the way, Die Zeit isn't 'far-left'. It's a Liberal newspaper, meaning conservative.

    Contrary to what you seem to think, there's no such thing as 'useless statistics'. It's these statistics that show that immigrant criminality is far overblown by some circles. Immigrant criminality is only marginally higher than resident criminality. So, in short, it's your own conclusions that are not supported by fact. And lastly, you are not 'a German' (I know Germans myself), you'r a right-wing extremist who doesn't know his facts.

    No thanks, I don;t need more proof of racism. Did you even read what you think you're commenting on?
     
  17. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    It's amazing how people will play dumb in any discussion about immigration. No wonder the far-right is making such huge inroads throughout pretty much all of Europe. The politically-correct, multicultural left has gone full blown demented on the topic of immigration and won't even pretend to be rational or care about facts (or, you know, that unfashionable thing called "democracy" and respecting the wishes and concerns of the majority).

    Oddly enough, if it was an African or Asian country facing a massive influx of Europeans and a rapid change in their demographic make-up and culture, the politically-correct multicultural left would be the first one to freak out and support all sorts of draconian measures the locals might take to preserve their way of life. But when an European leader talks merely of controlling immigration, choosing what people to allow in, and encourage the assimilation of immigrant populations, the screaming of "RACISM!!!!" starts. Their motto seems to be Africa for Africans, Asia for Asians, and Europe for everybody.
     
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  18. Hehehe

    Hehehe Emperor

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    This is the best you can do? I have presented you with facts. And instead of trying to come up with any sort of rational argument, instead you hit me with "TL;DR ur a racist lol"? Sir, ad hominem attacks are not a valid form of argumentation.

    Getting back on the topic of crime, have you seen incarceration rates?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802560.html

    I realize facts aren't always convenient, but whenever you look at per capita crime rates, they always paint a similar story.
     
  19. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    @luiz
    Or a harsher truth is most people don't have a reason to bring up either African or Asian immigration. If anything, I think when its brought up you'll see most people vastly disagree with Japan's policy's on immigration or Liberia's anti-African stance for example. You'll also see liberal circles point to Uganda for example as an example of a society who hasn't collapsed despite having allowed 600k+ refugees, despite being a much less well off nation than European nations gnashing their teeth.
     
  20. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Nobody would deny that an African or Asian nation have the right to control who they let in, to choose the types of immigrant they need (or don't), and so on and so forth. But somehow the exact same thing is a huge taboo in Europe.

    People may "disagree" with Japan's immigration policy, but I've never seen anyone deny that they are well within their right to pursue such policy, which is after all supported by the vast majority of the Japanese population. But much less restrictive proposals than the Japanese one in Europe are not met with quiet disagreement, they're met with hysterical accusations of "racism!" and inevitable analogies to the Nazis, Vichy France, and so on and so forth. Basically, for Europe nothing short of the complete abolition of immigration controls and acceptance of immigrant cultures as equal to the native ones is acceptable to the multi-cultural left. And screw what the majority of the European population may feel about it. Democracy is only OK as long as it goes the way the left wants it to. But the same standard does not apply, even remotely, to Africa or Asia,
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
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