1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by nikosison, Dec 15, 2010.

  1. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    I wrote a fantastic reply to Pat's post last night, but for some reason it refused to let me post it. So I'll re-write the cut and thrust here.


    • Keeping someone in a room alone for an extended period of time - with 'lack of human contact' and 'enforced idleness' as R2I would have it - causes psychological harm and is a technique used (in moderation) for similar purposes as torture

    • Civilised nations - the UK and US included - use 'solitary confinement', but it means something very different to that. Prisoners are allowed visitors and given things to do - such as watching TV - meaning that they do not suffer the side-effects to a scale larger than being in usual prison would cause

    • Any attempts to use the studies on solitary confinement in the 'put him in the cooler' sense as a way of pointing out the inhumanity of this system are misguided.
     
  2. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    33,999
    Location:
    USA #1
    Not at all, since they are both using solitary confinement as a means of extreme punishment of those already held in captivity.
     
  3. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    44,641
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    Well, there's a few days of solitary, and then there's solitary that feeds from weeks into months. The clients becoming increasingly weird and unhinged. People who get raped or assaulted in prison also get traumatised by prison, but they can still reasonably participate in their own defense/treatment. The folks in solitary become hard to handle and hard to interact with.
     
  4. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    9,162
    Location:
    Cary, NC USA
    This is all just an effort to let the uber-patriots relish in his punishment now, since their own actions (the military leadership) will result in him going free when he is actually tried. Once there is enough evidence to prove his unlawful imprisonment the executive branch will move him to the jurisdiction of the DoJ for trial and the patriots will have only themselves to blame for not being able to punish him further. As a result the executive branch pleases everyone a little...
     
  5. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    The problem comes from the use of the term 'solitary confinement', in moy opinion. If we use definitions instead:


    • The Japanese in 'A Bridge over the River Kwai' (a fantastic film, watch it if you haven't already) put the British officer in a small, dark room with no human contact for an extended period of time. This is very likely to cause psychological harm and, if used in such a way, is a way of extracting information from somebody - fairly similar to torture.

    • The US prison service removed Pte Manning from contact with his fellow prisoners but still allowed visitiors (ie; people who want to see him and by whom he consents to be seen) to visit him, and gave him something to do. This is used to prevent harm to the prisoner and/or to prevent the prisoner from causing harm to his fellow inmates. The admission of human contact and something to do makes psychological damage almost no more likely than being in a normal prison; for certain inmates less so.
    Can we agree on this?

    That's the River Kwai types (and the second type in your quote), but yes. Apparently it happens in chimps too.
     
  6. Hehehe

    Hehehe Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,391
    Location:
    Finland
    No. The article I quoted is about the US prison system too. I'm not at all convinced an hour of television and an occasional visitor is enough to remove all of the ill effects of solitary confinement. Assuming Fox news is right (that's a big if right there) Manning is not in solitary because others are a threat to him. Fox news says everybody in that place is in solitary. Also, according to Fox news Manning is not on suicide watch.
     
  7. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    46,853
    Location:
    In Perpetual Motion
    Actually, it said that everyone in pre-trial confinement is treated the same exact way. Manning isnt being treated any differently, better or worse, than anyone else there. All this angst over his situation is totally over-blown.
     
  8. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    Messages:
    30,387
    My God, Mobby! Do you mean to say EVERYONE there is tortured?!?!
     
  9. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    46,853
    Location:
    In Perpetual Motion
    Well, they all have to eat the same prison food I guess...
     
  10. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    I'm sorry but if your first statement is un-moveable then we're never going to agree. What causes problems is not being able to interact with people. Having an hour's TV (which, incidentally, provides structure, something which R2I candidates are told to develop for themselves if not provided (rigid sleep schedules, PT routines and so on)) and visitors (which gives something to look forward to, something else that you're told to establish) mitigates these effects - and even if it doesn't stop them altogether he's not exactly spending months there, is he?

    Reference the last sentance: seeing as it's pre-trial, the confinement is probably to prevent him being able to learn tricks from other prisoners in how to 'play the game' in court? Could one of our lawyers shed light on this?

    If your MREs are anything to go by prison food can only be an improvement.
     
  11. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    42,965
    Location:
    Chicago Sunroofing
    If they are confined, they haven't learned any effective tricks. Besides, Manning will have competent representation (assuming he is not represented by Lt. Watada's prosecutors) and is better off listening to his real lawyers rather than any jailhouse lawyers.
     
  12. Hehehe

    Hehehe Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,391
    Location:
    Finland
    No my sentence is not entirely un-moveable, if you can prove it is enough then I suppose it is enough. Also, he's already spent about half a year there.

    Is Virginia brig solitary somehow different from a solitary in a normal prison?

    Also, you talked about enforced idleness, which is AFAIK still present in Virginia brig.
     
  13. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    46,853
    Location:
    In Perpetual Motion
    He has the right to hire civil counsel at his own expense.
     
  14. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    42,965
    Location:
    Chicago Sunroofing
    By "jailhouse lawyers", I was referring to fellow prisoners teaching him the tricks of gaming the court system.
     
  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,391
    So, is the guy being pressured into acting as a "witness" in some false accusation of "conspiracy" to steal documents targeted at Assange?
     
  16. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    46,853
    Location:
    In Perpetual Motion
    Where do you think they learned it? :mischief:
     
  17. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    42,965
    Location:
    Chicago Sunroofing
    Not from anywhere if they are sitting in a brig. There is only so much a lawyer can do for some clients - facts are stubborn things and military proceedings are statistically even tougher than Collin or Denton County, Texas juries. If you were sitting in the brig, would you be more inclined to listen to your lawyer or a fellow prisoner when it came to your legal defense?
     
  18. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    46,853
    Location:
    In Perpetual Motion
    Soldiers in a brig still have attoney access.

    In Mannings case, I would think lawyer. I mean, how good can the other guys advice be if he is still in prison...right?
     
  19. Silurian

    Silurian Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,567
    Looks like his conditions are being improved

    From the BBC

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...16yNCw&usg=AFQjCNE4FicQJ45phga4-I0jqpU7RjsSbw
     
  20. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    12,721
    In other words, this shows he was never being held in anything other than a normal fashion and there is no special system created just for him.
     

Share This Page