The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention

[MobBoss]

For his own protection.

Why is this laughable to you? Do you not acknowledge such violence occurs in prison?

You really have no concept of appropriateness of treatment, do you?

Well, actually, I do, and I wish you wouldnt make this about me. That wouldnt be appropriate either.

I suppose that is typical of people who get a hard on out of telling people what to do while holding a gun. Woe to the vanquished!

The nice thing about military discipline is you should be able to do that without needing the gun. Kinda the point actually.

Very true, but protective custody is not so strict that the prisoner doesn't get sheets and a pillow. I question why they aren't giving him those, if he's not under suicide watch? Perhaps he is under suicide watch and they're lying about it?

Perhaps the whole article is full of half-truths and flat-out lies? It's happened before.

Well, since the writer of that opinion piece had previously stated that he thinks Manning a national hero.....well, that kind of says it all doesnt it?

Bias? Abosolutely.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Why is this laughable to you? Do you not acknowledge such violence occurs in prison?

Of course it does. But 1. its potential to be used to excuse something like this is obvious, 2. there is no demonstrative threat to him, 3. even if he needs be isolated "for his protection" that doesn't excuse treatment of this level, denying him even bedsheets when he is not on the suicide watch and has been nothing but a model inmate, and 4. I lol'ed at its very Orwellian sound and logic.

Well, actually, I do, and I wish you wouldnt make this about me. That wouldnt be appropriate either.

Then why do you think that someone ought to be treated like this simply because he broke the law?

The nice thing about military discipline is you should be able to do that without needing the gun. Kinda the point actually.

If the punishment for breaking that discipline is something like this, I think I'd prefer the gun. It probably works better than a gun, too.

 

[Zelig]

Manning was arrested by agents of the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command in May 2010 and held in pre-trial confinement in a military jail at Camp Arifjan in Kuwait.[1][2][3] On July 5, 2010, two misconduct charges were brought against him for "transferring classified data onto his personal computer and adding unauthorized software to a classified computer system" and "communicating, transmitting and delivering national defense information to an unauthorized source".[2][7] The charges included unauthorized access to Secret Internet Protocol Router Network computers, download of more than 150,000 United States Department of State diplomatic cables, download of a classified PowerPoint presentation, and downloading a classified video of a military operation in Baghdad on July 12, 2007. Manning is also charged for forwarding the video and at least one of the cables to an unauthorized person.[18] The maximum jail sentence is 52 years.[1]

Honestly, who puts classified data in a powerpoint presentation?

I think you are under the impression what you just said in any way makes solitary confinement torture. You are mistaken.

Please provide the citation that states the US considers solitary confinement torture. And guess what? Imprisonment PERIOD is bad for you physical/mental health. When your mom sent you to your room, WITHOUT DINNER EVEN, that was torture! Yes, this is what your current position is, congratulations.

There are degrees of physical and mental damage, some of which are inevitable when imprisoning someone. Is it reasonable to feed all your prisoners fresh quality organic fruits and vegetables? Not really. Does that mean their diet should consist solely of sugar and vitamin pills?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Of course it does. But 1. its potential to be used to excuse something like this is obvious, 2. there is no demonstrative threat to him, 3. even if he needs be isolated "for his protection" that doesn't excuse treatment of this level, denying him even bedsheets when he is not on the suicide watch and has been nothing but a model inmate, and 4. I lol'ed at its very Orwellian sound and logic.

Even if he were on suicide watch, that's still not justified. If you want to kill yourself that badly, they should just let you. Or at the very least, stop you when you are about to do so rather than torturing you.

 

[MobBoss]

Of course it does. But 1. its potential to be used to excuse something like this is obvious

No, its not. Considering the exceptional nature and media visibility of this crime, his exposure to other military prisoners does indeed carry a measure of risk. Whether you acknowledge that concern as being legitimate or not isnt really important.

2. there is no demonstrative threat to him

How do you know this?

3. even if he needs be isolated "for his protection" that doesn't excuse treatment of this level, denying him even bedsheets when he is not on the suicide watch and has been nothing but a model inmate

To what level has this allegation been verified? Simply because it is being reported in an opinion piece on Salon by someone who view Manning as a hero means your sure it occurs? Or that there simply isnt any reason for it to occur ( that you can think of)?

4. I lol'ed at its very Orwellian sound and logic.

I often have the same reaction for those that think this guy a hero.

Then why do you think that someone ought to be treated like this simply because he broke the law?

Thats not the case here. This case is exceptional, in many ways. Nothing 'simple' about it. In fact, if Manning convicted to the extent probably considered, life without parole is definitely a possibility.

If the punishment for breaking that discipline is something like this, I think I'd prefer the gun. It probably works better than a gun, too.

Rhetoric. I would find it hard to believe that Manning would prefer to be shot than be in solitary confinement awaiting trial. But thats me.

Even if he were on suicide watch, that's still not justified. If you want to kill yourself that badly, they should just let you.

Wow.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Wow.

So instead, we should not only force them to live, but to make them suffer in order to ensure they make themself live? How much more authoritarian and statist can you get?

 

[MobBoss]

So instead, we should not only force them to live, but to make them suffer in order to ensure they make themself live? How much more authoritarian and statist can you get?

So, people who are suicidal should just be allowed to kill themselves?

Again....wow.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So, people who are suicidal should just be allowed to kill themselves?

Again....wow.

It is a victimless crime, HOWEVER, even if you are going to ban it, you can still refuse to take certain measures to enforce the ban.

 

[Flying Pig]

I don't know if it's been said already, but I heard on another site from an American colonel of the Marines that where he is being kept is far from Butlins, true, but it's run to military standards and is actually one of the safest and best prisons the US has for the purpose. He expressed his concern that the hyped-up media reporting would influence the government to move Manning, which he felt would compromise his safety. I don't know if Mobboss has an opinon on the matter?

 

[Akka]

He was charged in July, I can only assume his trial is forthcoming...

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Isn't the trial supposed to precede "doing the time" ?

 

[Flying Pig]

Isn't the trial supposed to precede "doing the time" ?

They normally like to ensure you don't run away after being found out. If sentanced, the time spent awaiting trial is normally deducted from the sentance.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't know if it's been said already, but I heard on another site from an American colonel of the Marines that where he is being kept is far from Butlins, true, but it's run to military standards and is actually one of the safest and best prisons the US has for the purpose. He expressed his concern that the hyped-up media reporting would influence the government to move Manning, which he felt would compromise his safety. I don't know if Mobboss has an opinon on the matter?

Given the nature of his crime, its a given its going to be a volatile hotbed of opinion, and its fairly low hanging fruit to try and allege that all military prisons = gulags right now. Which is what this writer attempts to do.

You either buy into the propaganda....or you dont. I dont. But the writer knows that there will abolsutely be those that will. Thats his target audience.

Isn't the trial supposed to precede "doing the time" ?

Which is why we have a thing called 'time served' during sentencing.

 

[NovaKart]

About the suicide thing, allowing a prisoner to commit suicide or neglecting to monitor them if they are suicidal will definitely bring a lawsuit from the family. A prisoner could be going through a depression which they can later come out of.

Another thing, if a prisoner kills himself then there's the suspicion that it's not really a suicide.

 

[MobBoss]

It is a victimless crime

Tell that to the families of people that have comitted suicide. I dare you. Referring to it as a crime is debatable...saying its victimless is simply incorrect by a magnitude.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Tell that to the families of people that have comitted suicide. I dare you.

No, it is a victimless crime according to the legal definition. My point was not that nobody will be harmed by it, because that is obviously not true. But you cannot legally stop someone from doing something to themselves, at least not if you support liberty.

And doing so using cruel and unusual methods is even worse, and even more likely to make them want to kill themselves.

 

[MobBoss]

No, it is a victimless crime according to the legal definition.

If true (citation needed) then the definition is wrong.

But you cannot legally stop someone from doing something to themselves, at least not if you support liberty.

Thats not what liberty is about. At all. And in fact, I would call such a viewpoint rather warped to be honest.

And doing so using cruel and unusual methods is even worse, and even more likely to make them want to kill themselves.

Its neither cruel nor unusual to prevent suicides from occurring in this manner (i.e. solitary confinement and removal of potentially harmful items)

 

[Bamspeedy]

I had a teacher tell me suicide was illegal by using the following logic:

If they succeed, they got the death penalty. If they fail then they get put in a mental hospital (or required visit with a psychologist, or something similar).

 

[GhostWriter16]

If true (citation needed) then the definition is wrong.

My point was that it was a crime committed against yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime

Such a crime should not be illegal. Especially since if you are dead, they cannot punish you.

I do see your point, you think those who want to commit suicide have a mental problem and so should be forced not to do so. Even if that's your position, the measures apparently taken against people on suicide watch are more likely to make them WANT to commit suicide.

Frankly, as immoral and wrong as I think it is to take your own life, both wrong morally and to the family, I can't justify forcing someone to stay alive anymore than I can forcibly placing them in any other prison.

Thats not what liberty is about. At all. And in fact, I would call such a viewpoint rather warped to be honest.

So the state has a right to imprison you in your body against your will?

 

[Flying Pig]

Tell that to the families of people that have comitted suicide. I dare you. Referring to it as a crime is debatable...saying its victimless is simply incorrect by a magnitude.

Sorry, I feel I have to call you out on that one. It's incorrect to say that suicide isn't tragic or that it's a preventable loss, but to say 'he was a victim of suicide' is equally incorrect - connotations of passing the responsiblility and blame and so on. But I think your point - that suicides are rarely calculated acts by rational people - stands.

 

[Zelig]

So, people who are suicidal should just be allowed to kill themselves?

Again....wow.

Well, there's a large gap between suicide prevention in people with mental disorders, and actively preventing suicide in order for people to suffer for the rest of their lives.

I think it's expected to prevent suicides in prisoners awaiting trial, but preventing suicide for someone who is guaranteed to spend the rest of his or her life in jail just seems cruel.