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The Iroquois

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Edaka, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    Probably not thread worthy as I'm not sure if it's a bug or an intended feature, but here it goes:
    The new UB together with the UA are great and feel really powerful, especially if played on a heavily forested map. However, I found that the city connections via forests part of the UA stays relevant as long as until industrial era (kinda). The issue is that the 'forest roads' don't transform into 'forest railroads' upon researching the appropriate tech. Imo, it feels weird that all of the sudden you need to start building railroads to get the production and the movement speed bonuses, while skipping roads completely.
     
  2. Finarvi

    Finarvi Prince

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    You never need roads to build railroads (unfortunely*) anyway so it's not strange.

    *Actualy, I tried to convince community that building railroads on roads should be faster but it didn't pass.
     
  3. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    The more I look back at what I wrote in the OP, the less I'm convinced in it. I guess there really is little strange to it, just threw me off on my first playthrough as I'd imagined it would work differently. Oh well, not the first time it's happened to me, naive me. :)
     
  4. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Is the longhouse working properly?
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Probably? What does it do for you?
     
  6. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    The tooltip says it gives hammers on forest, but it actually gives food.
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    It should give both. +2 food on all forests and +1 production on forests and jungles, according to my ingame civpedia, and the tooltop
     
  8. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Yep. I see that listed for sure, but the yield isn't there in our game (hotseat). We're in the modpack, not the proper mod, so I can't pop away to verify this moment.
     
  9. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I'll just check it out first chance I get then.
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Okay I can confirm that the longhouse does not provide any hammers on forest-tiles. But this was with the new version of the patch, so it might have been intentionally changed to balance out the herbalist. No idea.

    It also provides +2 food on jungle (no production) something it is not supposed to do afaik.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'll give the Longhouse a look. I'm considering moving it to the Herbalist anyways (as it 'fits' that concept better) and making it a buffed up Herbalist (weakening the Herbalist is probably on ballot right now).

    G
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I'm not a huge fan of having all the forest-bonuses in the same spot, but then again if the production on the workshop stays it really doesn't matter much :D.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'd leave the workshop as-is, and rework the longhouse into a stronger herbalist. Makes more sense to have the Longhouse there (in terms of theme), but I don't want change for sake of change.

    G
     
  14. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Again as I mentioned somewhere else, I'd suggest dropping 1 hammers from the herbalist(base building), and adding it to some later building(windmill perhaps? Factory?).

    As for the longhouse, I'm not sure what to do with it now, maybe the existing +2 food (+3 food if you count the herbalist base) isn't the best solution.
     
  15. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    I'm actually not sure the workshop is functioning either, as far as putting hammers on forest tiles.
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I confirmed it in another game, the workshop does add one hammer to all forest/jungle tiles, the longhouse doesn't.
     
  17. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Minor suggestion involving Iroquois and Songhai. The Automated workers seems to be extremely bad at figuring out what free city-connections means and it has actually gotten worse in the recent versions. They used to ignore building roads to cities that were already connected, up until you have one city that isn't connected, at which point they try making a road all the way from the capital to there (instead of from the closest connected city). It isn't horrible, and considering you probably want roads eventually anyways, not much is actually lost (except early-game gold and worker-time I suppose).

    Also before someone complains about automated workers, and how this is easily avoided if you actually manually control your workers, some people actually use automated workers, not to mention that the AI uses automated workers. One of the goals of this mod is making the automation as good as possible.

    Anyways, my suggestion here would be just letting all roads on tiles that already provide free connections to be maintenance free, this doesn't really help with the wasted time issue, but it does help with the upkeep.
    By that I mean that Askia's roads on river-tiles should be maintenance free, and Hiawathas roads on forest/jungle-tiles should be maintenance free.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The AI builds roads because of the on-tile bonuses associated with roads (villages, towns).

    G
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Okay, let's just tell a story then. I was playing around a bit with a double expand start as the Songhai, delaying workers way more than they should probably be delayed, but anyways. I settled two cities on the same river as my capital, so they were both connected (which was the reason I felt like I could delay workers, needing them only for improvements.
    Anyways my satellites finally each produced a worker and I set them to automate, first thing they do is building a 10 tile road between my second and third cities. Now this isn't anywhere near as bad as it sounds, my cities were basically settled in a triangle, so the distance between the second and third one was only slightly longer than the distance between my capital and either of those cities. The important thing to note here is that both of my satellites are at around 3 population so even if that road would connect anything it would hardly be economically defendable. I also did not have access to currency so there were no tradingposts to benefit from this road.
    Bottom line is that building such a road would definitely hurt the AI, and in the end it didn't even connect anything (the river was shorter so the city-connection used it instead)



    Now on to the important question, which is "Why did you ignore the suggestion?" :D
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I just don't see the need for the suggestion's change, to be honest. If the AI is acting up, which your anecdote alludes to (one case doesn't make a bug, but it is something), I'd rather not band-aid it with a UA change.

    G
     

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