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The Iroquois

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Edaka, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. saamohod

    saamohod Prince

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    This. In my several observer games they kept staying at the very top or at least second in score among ~12civs on Tectonic large map. I'll run a couple more test matches, and if it keeps happening I'll raise alarm :D
     
  2. saamohod

    saamohod Prince

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    I'd like to bring some attention to the Iroquois again since my last post in February.
    Several game were played since, some of them were testing runs. I included the Iroquois intentionally in the AI list to watch them more closely. They score top in all (IIRC) of the games and emerge victorious consistently.
    Lack of balance or am I being biased?
    Screenshot of my current game, it's only turn 131 and the Iroquois are on the runaway track already. (Prince difficulty)
     

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  3. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Gazebo said they are a high scorer, but not out of whack.
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the AI tends to do really well when it get lots of early production, and the Iroquios Longhouse helps with that (also see Songhai often doing so well, even before he goes to war with anyone).

    The Iroqoius AI also does a great job of only being aggressive when its needed. None of those foolish warrior/archer rushes, he usually only wars someone with an actual reason. Because he is friendly towards everyone at first, often whoever who ends up fighting becomes on bad terms with the rest of the world
     
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Plus the Iroqoius AI has a playstyle suited to an AI. They leverage their AI bonuses well and are able to adapt very well. The AI is the worst at war, and as CrazyG mentioned they only take smart wars normally, so they're consistently powerful. None of that 'take early war and stall out' BS that brings inconsistency to a lot of warmongers.
     
  6. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    And to all that, they are high-achieving expansionists. If they war early, it's because you're blocking them.
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Also worth mentioning that all their uniques are early. So in theory they should start out really strong and fall behind as the game goes on.
     
  8. PapaRockett

    PapaRockett Prince

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    Why does Hiawatha do EXCEPTIONALLY well in the leaderboards? He can go Progress, have no culture resources/religious belief, expand about 20 cities, and yet still have 4-5 more policies than everyone else.

    What am I missing?
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Pantheon? The forest one synergizes extremely well.
     
  10. PapaRockett

    PapaRockett Prince

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    Yeah it does, but he never picks it. In fact I've seen him chop away 90% of his forests, which is odd. Things may have changed since then, but he's still always at the top of the boards in my games and I don't see how.
     
    saamohod likes this.
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think its his unique building. It provides a lot of production, which combined with the AI's production handicap lets his cities develop very quickly. Another civ with an early production UB is Songhai who also performs above average in my experience.

    Hiawatha also does a good job of balancing war and friendship
     
  12. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I agree with CrazyG. The AI syncs with the bonus Longhouse production very well, especially when it goes Progress and gets Food/Culture from completing buildings. And as you (PapaRockett) pointed out, Hiawatha's AI likes to chop down trees a little too much, and since the capital placement algorithm tends to place Hiawatha in heavily forested regions, that bonus production from cutting forests feeds into the building completion, so he can fill out his non-capital cities with buildings faster. This boost only lasts for as long as he still has forests/jungle around, but in the early game he tends to jump ahead. Also, yes, his AI is good about handling war/peace relationships with other Civs. I've seen this behavior again and again with the Iroquois in my games over the last several months of patches, even after his forest-chopping tendencies were trimmed back (heh) a few patches ago.
     
  13. Cerest

    Cerest Warlord

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    His UA synergizes extremely well with Progress. Increased production from longhouses result in more food/culture. More food = more culture. Free city connections result in free science in every city. Free science in every city results in more techs. More techs = more culture. His starting bias tends to be around forested areas, so he tends to do well.
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    While I agree the AI does really well with Iroquois, I think the UB could still do with a flat +1 prod. The early lead tapers hard in my games as Iroqouis, and I think it just needs a little more jam.

    My one big gripe with this civ is I can't justify going to war with anyone because the AI removes all the forests. I end up only enjoying the benefits of the UA or UB in a defensive war. In my next game I'm going to be playing with framed architect's [reforestation mod](https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/reforestation.495013/), but this civ would be much more 'fun' if reforestation was in the base CBP, since the jungle and forest tiles are more balanced CBP.

    If you wanted to constrain reforesting to city limits you could add a building to biology or fertilizer like a city park. Add a specialist slot which, instead of spawning great people, converts 1 workable, unimproved plains or grassland tile every 8 turns into forest or jungle. This would also be unaffected by worker improvement speed buffs, so people couldn't plant/harvest forest for free prod
     
  15. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    Lots of people here including me play with forestation
     
  16. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The only reason Reforestation wasn't incorporated or even made compatible by me was because the AI would never understand when to plant a forest. It would see a farm. Think oh shoot +5 Production and a bazillion science from this Forest because of some Workshop or University and whatever and then just start planting them everywhere replacing villages and farms. The value outweigh itself. If we wanted to make Reforestation a thing, I would have to make it a separate feature. We can call it Old Growth(all forests generated from the map and new growth forests that can develop into one with a random chance) and New Growth forests(obtained from replanting) from being so trigger-happy in replanting forests.

    Actually don't give me any ideas. I got too much tadpoles on my plate.
     
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  18. DoctorDuke

    DoctorDuke Chieftain

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    So is Reforestation compatible with the latest Vox then?
     
  19. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    If by compatible you mean "do no crash", then the answer should be yes (though not tested). If you mean "balanced and used cleverly by the AI", then the answer is no.
     
  20. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    i have actually got iroques through random pick and appeared on tundra with maybe 2 cities possible with usefull longhouse inside. but to the point i scrolled through UB list and it seems to me, together with their UA that they are really somewhat garbage civ. AI performes well with them somehow, but i feel like longhouse is, aside from everything else, thrash compared to other UBs, It does literally nothing when you have no forrest/jungles or plantation resources to settle. +1:c5culture: is nice early on, but not worth for building it for culture itself. With other UBs i have always some reason for building them, because they have usually side effects, this one has none. I think adding the same bonuses for camps would be nice and decrease :c5production: cost of it also.
     

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