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The Iroquois

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Edaka, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Iroquois is one of those Civs whose "power" shifts with that map script you are using. If there are no large tracts of forested land for them to settle then they get little use from their Uniques. But the same goes for Polynesia when you play maps with no useful islands or multiple continents. But on a standard map with a good amount of forests and natural wonders, they are pretty well balanced.
     
  2. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    comunitas map doesn't work well for them. i can imagine that tectonics or planet simulator or maybe any other basic map can do better for them. anyway they are boring to play. i don't know, maybe that proposal for buffing their UB was premature, but picking map script for their ub to work is poor and it still seems worse on paper compared to others.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    They are insanely strong fighting in forests. If your start doesn't have any, then look for them. If there are civs occuping your rightful lands, you know what to do.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  4. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    i don't see their ,,insane'' power in forest fighting. i see their movement bonus and defensive bonus in forest and nearby NW. anyway no forest nearby no. Korea has jungle but is over sea and neighbouring egypt has plains/desert. i have already picked tradition so no senseless fighting will happen.

    But don't be afraid, that if situation allows me conquering my paradise, i would do.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  5. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    That seems like an extremely odd choice.
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Unique unit on forest. Do the math.
     
  7. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    please, can you realise that initial post was about absolutely another thing. same for funak. no matter what policy i choose. i have spawned on tundra in a location with at most 10 forest tiles overall in my settling range surrounded by 4 cs. i have furs as my initial resource, half of them on plains without forest and forest on tundra are half as effective as on grass or plain. in this scenario, with low food, production and overall bad location not just for a capital, i have decided go fertility pantheon + tradition because i have spawned also somewhat isolated, so i was preparing to have as much food as possible for being able work as much specialists as possible. I am not saying that mohawk is weak unit nor building in good scenario, but comunitas script just makes most favorable maps for me, less homogenous but fairly often unfair to civ with terrain prerequisities. I have had also bad start with Aztecs few months ago, with almost none river and 0 lakes on tundra, but i still had UA, so i didn't complain and did what aztecs are intended to do. Iroquis does not seem to me a warmonger civ, rather one of those free to choose what to do with some bonuses here and there.

    point of my initial post was discuss balance of UB. I haven't said, that if you get start like i got, you will restart map once you explore map and realise you have almost nothing related to your UB, but also having Ub not worth to build in most of my cities also doesnt feel good. i mean same bonuses for camps without feature would be nice.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  8. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    So you play non-standard map script, you got a bad start and then you complain about Iroquois being too weak? Doesn't it feel strange to you? Iroquois are fine really
     
  9. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    IIRC, Gazebo tests using Communitas, so I don't think it is considered non-standard. Having said that, I find Communitas does tend to have more... "scattered" forest patches than it does continuous forest cover.
     
  10. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    are you serious, or just try troll me? Longhouse is really bad in bad situation and it has no side effect. Only one other UB is comparable, and that is floating gardens. All the others i can remember now have at least some side effects, like Askia's UB has % towards buildings. And in the end, with floating gardens and its bonuses you can be sure that you won't have to remove anything because of future resources.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Why do you compare UB vs UB? You should compare whole civ vs whole civ. And there are many other UBs that are comparable and even worse (e.g. Siam's UB).
    Indeed Longhouse is not that strong later on, but it gives you crazy strong boost in the early game. If you don't take advantage of it - that's your problem.
    Also Hiawata is one of the most powerful civs for founding religion
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Nope, random map type.

    G
     
  13. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    because they do not have to be comparable regarding their bonuses directing them toward specifical victory type. but i see your point, that some civs may have something weaker in compensation of stronger another unique thing. i see their bonus for either defending or conquering cities with NWs, which tends to be strongest cities after the capitals. And imho realise advantage of longhouse isn't atomic theory, you just need proper terrain, if you don't have it , nor have none such a place for expansion, building is useless. you have mentioned siams UB, but this one gives bonuses to terrain and buildings and is improved by statecraft and ideology if you pick it, also usefull against spies so whatever happen, you are going to build it anyway everywhere, if for nothing else, then because of decrease crime at least.
     
  14. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    This is on the same level as whining about civs with naval bonuses or ship UUs being useless if you're landlocked. Yeah it can happen, but most of the time it doesn't.
     
    CrazyG and tu_79 like this.
  15. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    sorry but i am trying here explain, why longhouse should get some minor bonus of relevant yields to another thing for being usefull even outside of forests/ w/o plantation resources. if no one agree with that, or had not experience situation where 75% cities had no use of that building, then i accept it. i am not forcing anyone to agree with me :D anyway im speaking about huge maps in my case, so absence of coast in expansion range is nearly impossible,while having a flat land start w/o forrest/jungles may happen pretty often. as long as you can expand peacefully or through force, it is ok. and even then, i can pick proper pantheon and be overall sucesfull without my unique bonuses, but that doesnt belong to this disscusion.
     
  16. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I stand corrected. :)
     
  17. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    Just make longhouse spawn 3-5 forests/jungles on empty tiles around city, even if illogical, this would help situation greatly :borg::borg:
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Not needed. Iroquois are fine.

    G
     
  19. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    That would actually be cool. Especially if you could sell and rebuild it to terraform an area.

    On a completely unrelated note I just bought the board game terraforming mars like 3 hours ago. (I've played it many times, but I wanted my own copy.)
     
  20. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Any reason why Mohawks no longer have Woodsman? It makes them a lackluster CS UU to get.
     

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