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The Iroquois

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Edaka, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    It's a pretty good bonus IMO. This civ is an early war civ and Natural Wonders can be early game hot spots. Also nice for conquering city states that have a natural wonder. An extra 20% means that archers whittle down cities a lot faster.

    Iroquois aren't great overall so I'd hesitate to remove a bonus without giving them something.
     
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  2. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Iroquois feel great to me in terms of balance. I don't see a need to remove that bonus. It's not hurting anyone :p.
     
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  3. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I agree that it feels odd to be there, but Iroquois are a civ that no one EVER complains about being OP or UP and therefore I'm terrified of touching it lol.

    Let them keep their out of place nice thing.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree, I don't think its hurting anything. If you can put it to use, great. If you don't, you don't seem to be missing much.
     
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  5. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    As Iroquois, I absolutely hate starting next to Bison. It's the only civ in the game that doesn't get +1 Production from working these because the Herbalist bonus to camps is lost. Same when starting surrounded by no forest Furs, but these are rare. I understand maybe not giving Iroquois +1 Production to all camps to avoid it stacking with the forest bonus, but can at the very least Bison as a resource (and maybe furs) get the yield so Hiawatha isn't negatively affected by a start with them?
     
  6. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I imagine this would also apply to Ivory, and not Furs.
     
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  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Is it possible to code a bonus to camps without features?
     
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  8. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    I think the longhouse should give plus 1 production to camps. The Iroqouis are far from top tier civs, so they wouldn't be too strong with this.
     
  9. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Then issue with flat 1 production to camps is that it doubles up with their bonus to forest and jungle, which feels like it would be unbalanced.

    The Iroquois aren't consistently better than other civs but they aren't consistently worse either.
     
  10. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    I don't think it'd be unbalanced, it'd just make Iroqouis a tiny bit stronger, which is needed compared to most civs. But I like your idea as well (camps without forests/jungles), if it were possible.
     
  11. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Oh yeah, I was so annoyed about a start with all but one Fur being forestless that I forgot all about the literal elephant in the room.

    If the camp without forest bonus doesn't exist, I suggest
    +1:c5production: to Ivory, Bison, (furs?)
    Maybe 1 :c5food: more than regular herbalist, same as the difference between Iroquois' and base Plantation.

    Or just the simple solution of giving Iroquois back the Herbalist's +1 :c5production: to camps. Right now an Iroquois Camp is pretty much equal to regular one even on the forest (1:c5food::c5production: vs 1:c5production: + 1/2 :c5food::c5production:) while it's simply inferior without it, that way it'd be superior but not overly so.
     
  12. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    When I've played Iroqois I've been fishing for forest heavy starts with furs (best) or truffles (good).
    Its a LOT of early prod with longhouse, boosted later with lumbermills.
    But outside those forest/jungle areas he's got the same issue as Inca (well double movement on hills is still better) without mountains.
     
  13. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Don't forget the Iroquois Longhouse provides base food and culture, and buffs plantations which are fairly common. Iroquois plains/grassland starts aren't bad actually (e.g. tea), and there's usually at least some forest/jungle nearby.

    My other thought is that even if you don't start in forest/jungle, you can still benefit from your UA if it is nearby. E.g. if your enemy's capital is in the middle of the jungle, conquering it should be easier for the Iroquois than other civs.

    Also swordsmen that don't require iron are pretty neat. If nothing else, rushing your UU and then spamming it at the nearest person is usually viable :).
     
  14. Drakle

    Drakle King

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    It could just be

    1 food and production to camps and plantations
    1 food and production to non camp forests and jungles.

    So the camps work wherever, but it isn't a ancient building adding 4 yields to a single already pretty good tile.
     
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  15. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    That's effectively what I was thinking of. Just a matter of whether coding 'non camp forest/jungle' or 'non-forest/jungle camp' is easier.
     
  16. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    For easier coding, Drakle, perhaps "1 food and production to forests and jungles without resources"?
     
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  17. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    How much of an issue would it be if we simply gave +1:c5production: to Camps, really? The above proposal means that you won't get yields from unimproved resources in forest and jungle, which is a part of Iroquois I really like, getting high yield tiles without workers.
     
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  18. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Chicorbeef, my post was meant as the 2nd part, not the only part. So it'd be
    1 food and production to camps and plantations
    1 food and production to forests and jungles without resources
     
  19. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Let's just go with no new code and give every camp 1 production.
     
  20. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Not a huge issue. I want the longhouse to buff camps.

    The potential downside is simply that it makes the strongest Iroquois start (lots of forest camps) even stronger. So the feeling that the Iroquois are terrain dependant and that you need a particular start to really play to their strengths may not be resolved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020

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