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The Isle of Man is still at war with Germany...

Discussion in 'World History' started by diablodelmar, May 16, 2006.

  1. diablodelmar

    diablodelmar no comment

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    ...apparently anyway. Here's the supposed deal: When Great Britain declared war on Germany in 1914, the Isle of Man were part of it. Some sort of diplomatic change made it a Crown Dependancy or something, and then they never signed the Versailles treaty! So technically I, as a citizen of the IOM, can shoot a random German and get away with it, though I wouldn't bet any money on the fact...

    For those who don't know, the Isle of Man is the island in between Enlgand (Liverpool) and Ireland (Dublin, more specifically) where the famed motorcycle road races called the TT (tourist trophy) takes place every June. It's relativly small, only 80,000 population. It's also a tax haven, meaning a lot of large companies are attracted to the place.
     
  2. Stefan Haertel

    Stefan Haertel Title

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    So?

    Ten characters.
     
  3. diablodelmar

    diablodelmar no comment

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    So!

    10 char
     
  4. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    [SH] Well, that seems rather a rude response.

    This sounds interesting, although I have to say it has the air of an urban myth (saying that if you're Manx you can shoot a German and get away with it is to my ears like saying that if you turn up for your finals at Oxford in a suit of plate armour on a white horse you automatically get a first). In particular, even if it's true that the Isle of Man was not party to the Treaty of Versailles, what about the end of the Second World War?
     
  5. diablodelmar

    diablodelmar no comment

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    I thought about that, and obviously we aren't really still at war, but technically speaking its possible. When war is declared, does it affect the regime or the country? i.e. Did america declare war on Iraq or the Hussein Goverment?
     
  6. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Well, on the country. If a country changes government and the new one decides it doesn't want to continue a war it inherits, it has to actively end it. Otherwise a country that's losing a war could arrange a "regime change" and claim that any further action by its enemy is an illegal invasion, thereby avoiding any punitive peace settlement!
     
  7. diablodelmar

    diablodelmar no comment

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    Ahhh thanks. I don't even know whether the IOM was even involved in the declaration of War in WW2, but since some German Junkers Stuka dropped a few bombs here I guess we were pulled into it.
     
  8. El Justo

    El Justo Chieftain

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    hmm. this is indeed kind of interesting.

    reminds me a little of the stories we hear where Imperial Japanese soldiers (in their 70s and 80s mind you!) holed up in the mountainous jungles in the Philippines still think that the war is ongoing :crazyeye:
     
  9. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    The U.S. hasn't declared war on anyone since 1942.

    If you killed a German the courts would not let you get away with it due to a simple technicality.
     
  10. bathsheba666

    bathsheba666 Fast 'n Bulbous

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    I believe, for roughly the same reasons, the (currently) English town of Berwick-upon-Tweed was for centuries still at war with Russia.

    Over history it flipped between England and Scotland, and ended up being mentioned as part of the list of countries that declared war on Russia under Victoria.

    Not mentioned in the peace treaty though.

    http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/berwick/berwickupontweed/

    A peace treaty was only finally signed by a Russian diplomat and the the Mayor of Berwick in 1966.
    As the mayor said at the time:
    "You can tell the Russian people that they can now sleep peacefully in their beds".
     
  11. willemvanoranje

    willemvanoranje Curitibano

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    How the hell did Stuka bombers get to the Island of Man?
     
  12. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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  13. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    All right, no doubt this is OT, but how can this possibly be true? What of Iraq?
     
  14. diablodelmar

    diablodelmar no comment

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    uh, they flew...
     
  15. Berrie

    Berrie Proud father

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    I cannot give you an exact answer to your question, but I studied international law at university and I can say you that it isn't a simple, straightforward matter.

    I think that it's possible that the USA, with the use of certain technicalities in international law, was able to avoid declaring war on other countries and still intervene in a military way.

    I think for Iraq, they used the breach of UN resolutions and the doctrine of preemptive strike (which many believe does not exist in international law) to attack the regime of Saddam without declaring war as such. But to be more precise I would have to do some research.
     
  16. Adler17

    Adler17 Prussian Feldmarschall

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    At first a war is declared by a nation to another. It is officially ending with a peace treaty. After ww2 Germany had a peace treaty with the Allies at last with the so called 2 + 4 treaty. I think that should have ended all hostilities between Germany and the Allies at least and at last officially. Although I can´t remember a case where German troops after May 9th 1945 fired on Allies. I think with that treaty, although not knowing if all British lands are mentioned, a peace treaty is given, although the terminus peace treaty was not chosen.
    However IF Germany is still at war with the IoM, you can´t shoot any German. A German soldier perhaps, but since there is at east a cease fire, it is hard to argue so. And German civilians are not valid targets in the eyes of international war law. So if you shoot a German civilian you would be charged for murder- or sent into a booby hatch, perhaps both.
    At last the Ju 87 had not such a great range to fly from France to the IoM. Ju 88 perhaps, but not the Ju 87.

    Adler
     
  17. diablodelmar

    diablodelmar no comment

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    Adler17, what you say makes perfect sense.

    However, I maintain that Manx shipping just outside of Douglas and even the coast of the Island itself were bombed by Stuka Dive Bombers.
     
  18. Adler17

    Adler17 Prussian Feldmarschall

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    Well the Ju 87 had only a range of 600 km, and in the R variant 1200. However I severly doubt that this were Ju 87 bombing IoM.

    Adler
     
  19. 7ronin

    7ronin 海軍少佐

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    The Isle of Man is a crown dependency (i.e. it is owned by the British Crown) and has been a crown dependency since 1765. The Lord of Man is Queen Elizabeth II. The Isle of Man is self governing in domestic matters but the crown has reserved for itself the right to control matters of defense and foreign affairs relating to the Isle.

    The United Kingdom declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939. It also did so on behalf of the various entities comprising the British Empire including the Isle of Man (the Dominions issued their own declarations of war) .

    All hostilities between Germany and the allied powers (including Great Britain and the British Empire) ceased on May 8, 1945 as part of the unconditional German surrender. At that time a state of war no longer existed and there were no more German combatants. The fact that the various peace treaties were not signed until much later is not relevant. A peace treaty is not necessary to end hostilities. Keep in mind also that the allies were at war with the Third Reich and not with the successor government of the Bundesrepublik. Perhaps, more importantly, it is against the law of war for civilians to engage in armed combat. It is also against the law of war to intentionally kill civilians. So there are several reasons why it would be illegal for someone from the Isle of Man to kill a German in 2006. :nono:

    The last time the United States formally declared war was on December 7, 1941 (not 1942). Subsequent wars have been undeclared and have been fought under the guise of calling them "police actions," or "armed responses" or have been conducted under the umbrella of United Nations Resolutions. There is an ongoing debate in this country about the constitutionality of undeclared wars. :hmm:

    On another matter, the distance from Caen to Douglas is something like 600 kilometers. The maximum range of the JU-87G was around 1000 kilometers. So a German bombing of Man is theoretically possible but I can't see any military reason for it even if you could get there and back without being shot down. :confused:

    edit: fixed a grammar problem
     
  20. diablodelmar

    diablodelmar no comment

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    :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

    Well researched! I didn't look into it in that much detail!

    I am surprised you know even more about the Isle of Man than I do. How did you know all that?

    The Island did get bombed at least once. Whether it was by that particular aircraft I do not know.
     

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