[RD] The Israel/Palestine Quarantine Thread

[Mouthwash]

1. I think you mean this to be your middle link. I'm not arguing with the first, and the third would take me into a different tangent, but none of this was actually what I meant. I was talking about in this thread. We've crossed this specific argument before, and I can't remember how it went down, but you keep using wording that suggests behaviour you've been subject to in this thread or on this forum. That's why I challenged you to provide some kind of a link of quote. I wasn't asking for generic examples of actual (or alleged) antisemitism.

Outside of your sweeping generalisations about Israelis and Palestinians, this actually lead me onto an interesting argument. One of the "terrorists" you mentioned was actually someone who was resisting the occupation of 1967. To me, this is a very tenuous use of the word "terrorist", but it's synonymous with Zionist arguments I've seen (admittedly only online) and also from right-wing Israelis and their international supporters. To label such a person a terrorist while rejecting criticism of Israel-as-a-state is something I've got to disagree with. It's far too binary. David Ben-Gurion, for example, notably decried the entire existence of Jordan. Doesn't this make him bad? It would, to those from that region, I'd imagine. They'd hold similar opinions about Ben-Gurion and his administration (and any successors to that ideology), as you do of Hamas, and / or modern-day threats to Israel itself. But it's also indicative of the kind of education you've had. See 3 for more on this.

2. Going to have to disagree.

Bonus reading (it's Quora, but it seems well-sourced).

3. I'm not arguing what it's bound up with, mainly on account of not knowing enough to argue to the level I'd want to. My point here is the precision with which you use your words, which seems intensely coloured by the information that has been made available to you. This is part of what makes discussion of the topic so tricky, and I'd have a far better time understanding you if you didn't posit your personal understanding of the situation as some balanced international truth. There are things that happened in the 60s around this that we might never understand fully, or be able to decide conclusively who was at fault. Nevermind what's going on now.

That said, I'm incredibly certain I'm not going to change your mind on this. I'm not saying this to be dismissive, more to acknowledge the limits of what we can achieve in a thread like this. I don't want you thinking "oh he's trying to trick me", or "he hates me", or whatever else can come across when you feel your rights are being attacked. I want you to understand that there are more sides to this conflict than you seem to have experienced or have been told of.

4. Who claimed that Zionism is a religious exercise? It's a movement, but you'd have a hard time denying religious influence, that's for sure. This is just more of "my side is good and their side is bad".

5. Your personal experience is not all that there is in this world. As for what Zionists do or don't do, I reserve judgement (completely). I don't know any Zionists (at least, any people I'm aware are such), but I'm sure I can absolutely find that overlap in right-wing Israelis that even you agree exist, and Zionists are you argue them to be (as supposed to the general perception).

6. Your motives have included hatred, if that's the label we're going to stick on people (again, in an RD thread. I'm really trying to engage with you here, and I'm not trying to backseat moderating, but I just don't want it coming out of nowhere when I give up trying to make my arguments on this tangent). Left-wing antisemitism definitely exists, but as a leftist let me tell you: there are very few people active in OT that are definitively leftist. A lot fit into the centrist and centre-left umbrella that's taken for "leftist" in America (and somewhat online). I'm not doing this to put anyone down, I'm not saying people aren't progressive because of this, but honestly, I could count the "left-wingers" in here on one hand - including myself. To have a discussion with these specific people and antisemitism on "the Left"? Make a thread about it, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you to the best of my ability. But this is just an assumption that you're making to support the grievances you're bringing into these arguments.

Also, seriously. Plenty of countries are hated to rather extreme lengths. Some for more arguably-fair reasons than others, sure, but there's plenty of hatred going around the world. And once again, I do believe it massively complicated, but I want to separate out antisemitism with anger and yes, even hatred of the right-wing Israeli political body.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to end this conversation here. It's exhausting and unproductive and I have a limited amount of free time these days.

So, exactly why am I an antisemite?

• Because I mentioned that Jews are planning to rebuild their temple?
• The Jews are not happy with a Mosque on the Temple Mount?
• That Israel is playing a long game diplomatically regarding its goals for a temple and for its relations with the Arab nations?
• That Israel is slowly taking back all the land that it has allocated to Palestinians over time?
• Other?

Most of those, yeah. It's really close to the Eurabia theories, except that it's a deliberate and conscious strategy on the part of the Jews.

I don't think too many Jews care that there is a mosque there. Mosques are considered pure and they are the only other place of worship that religious Jews are allowed to enter besides synagogues. If it was a church, then there might be a problem.

Kinda non political question.

There's a band on YouTube called Orphaned Land. Are they well known in Israel their musics quite good IMHO.

This thread is about the conflict, so you could just ask the question elsewhere. Never heard of them personally, but I'm not into that kind of music.

 

[Gorbles]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to end this conversation here. It's exhausting and unproductive and I have a limited amount of free time these days.

Fair enough. I know we disagree on a lot of things, but I understand your reasons.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So, exactly why am I an antisemite?

• Because I mentioned that Jews are planning to rebuild their temple?
• The Jews are not happy with a Mosque on the Temple Mount?
• That Israel is playing a long game diplomatically regarding its goals for a temple and for its relations with the Arab nations?
• That Israel is slowly taking back all the land that it has allocated to Palestinians over time?
• Other?

Most of those, yeah. It's really close to the Eurabia theories, except that it's a deliberate and conscious strategy on the part of the Jews.

I don't think too many Jews care that there is a mosque there. Mosques are considered pure and they are the only other place of worship that religious Jews are allowed to enter besides synagogues. If it was a church, then there might be a problem.

So mentioning those points makes me antisemetic? It appears that your view of antisemetic means talking about Israel or Jews.

 

[Mouthwash]

So mentioning those points makes me antisemetic? It appears that your view of antisemetic means talking about Israel or Jews.

"I mean, sure, usury is bad, right? Also pornography. Shane that the people doing these things hold most of the wealth and influence in our country. But when did I ever say I hated Jews? Can't they handle criticism?"

 

[mitsho]

Which just proves how incredibly hard it is to discuss this topic. The Temple Mount is for sure a highly political topic, meaning that it is primarily the Israeli State (and the Palestinian Authorities?) that are in charge of how it is handled. Yet, it is also a highly religious and cultural thing, and here is where „the Jews“ come in, or rather Civil Society Actors and Public Opinion among people considering themselves/considered to be a part of the Jewish Community.

See just how difficult that is, now let me do that to all the other cultural and religious groups with a stake in the Temple Mount. I went back and read Birdjaguars post and he really does speak of Jews, so I have to give that point to Mouthwash. It is by the way the same when people talk about „Brussels“ or Washington. It just isn‘t helpful, since these are not monolithic entities. It is so much more helpful to speak directly of the Civil Society actors that want to do X or Y on the Temple Mount. Because they are institutionally bound, whereas noone truly can speak of „what the Jews want“.

That‘s however an incredibly more complex conversation, and I understand Birdjaguar‘s point and why it was phrased this way. I also agree that the whole story doesn‘t seem kosher. That is from an outside point of view, I do not believe in conspiracy stories.

In other news, have you formed a government yet? Corona kind of swamped that in the news here...

 

[Birdjaguar]

"I mean, sure, usury is bad, right? Also pornography. Shane that the people doing these things hold most of the wealth and influence in our country. But when did I ever say I hated Jews? Can't they handle criticism?"

That makes no sense at all. Based on What @mitsho said, you might be objecting to the use of the word "Jews" as some collective group like Americans, Brits, Russians etc. Such appellation might be in accurate, but it is not hateful or antisemetic. The larger questions remain: Will a third temple be built on the Temple Mount? Will Israel annex all of the west Bank over time? Will the Mosque on the Temple Mount be removed in the future?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I guess that in Jared's mindset the Palestinians should be happy to be a submissive Bantustan subclass having their share of the Great Israel pancake.
And they will not submit... how stupid.

Yeah he clearly had zero perspective or empathy with the Palestinians. It was clear from listening to him for a couple of minutes that he is uniquely unsuited for the role he's been given as he is only capable of seeing one side of the issue. Well, I guess he is suited for the job since the real goal of this administration is to give away as much to the Israelis on the issue as they can.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So mentioning those points makes me antisemetic? It appears that your view of antisemetic means talking about Israel or Jews.

There's a pretty wide sect that wants to hide the Israeli state behind the skirts of Judaism. They use claims of antisemetism as a club to bash any critic of the state in hopes that the state can then commit whatever egregious action crosses its path. You have encountered one.

 

[Mouthwash]

That makes no sense at all. Based on What @mitsho said, you might be objecting to the use of the word "Jews" as some collective group like Americans, Brits, Russians etc. Such appellation might be in accurate, but it is not hateful or antisemetic.

That's not what I'm objecting to. Surely you can see how making vicious, false claims about a religious or ethnic group could be construed as bigoted?

The larger questions remain: Will a third temple be built on the Temple Mount? Will Israel annex all of the west Bank over time? Will the Mosque on the Temple Mount be removed in the future?

Not in any remotely conceivable near future, no. The only way I could see it happening was if some apocalyptic sect took off in Israel, but all trends point in the opposite direction (support for the settlements has been high ever since Hamas emerged, but this is due to the centrist electorate giving up on Oslo and the two-state solution en masse. The real messianic-settler ideology has been dying for a long time. Also, Israel's demographic future is Haredi, the most religiously orthodox branch of Judaism and one that will have no truck with Temple-building or the idea of the state of Israel as a divine instrument).

Only way the Palestinians are getting expelled is if Israel faces an existential threat, e.g. we get invaded and the Palestinians try to rise at the same time. Otherwise, impossible.

Yeah he clearly had zero perspective or empathy with the Palestinians. It was clear from listening to him for a couple of minutes that he is uniquely unsuited for the role he's been given as he is only capable of seeing one side of the issue. Well, I guess he is suited for the job since the real goal of this administration is to give away as much to the Israelis on the issue as they can.

A five-minute conversation with a Palestinian (not a Westernized one) is sufficient to remove one's empathy for their cause. If you don't support irredentism, hate, and religious fascism, that is.

The Palestinians have valid complaints as individuals, as communities or as towns. But their national movement is 100% evil.

There's a pretty wide sect that wants to hide the Israeli state behind the skirts of Judaism. They use claims of antisemetism as a club to bash any critic of the state in hopes that the state can then commit whatever egregious action crosses its path. You have encountered one.

Funny, I've never seen that happening. What I do see are antisemites hiding their disgusting opinions behind the skirts of Israeli foreign policy.

"Israel is a criminal state!"

"What has Israel done?"

"It provides a home to Jews and takes military action to protect them. Boycott!"

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Funny, I've never seen that happening.

No mirrors?

 

[tetley]

Corona has given the "Israel Quarantine thread" whole new meaning.

 

[Traitorfish]

Also, Israel's demographic future is Haredi, the most religiously orthodox branch of Judaism and one that will have no truck with Temple-building or the idea of the state of Israel as a divine instrument).

"We will not do this very stupid thing because our religious kooks won't stand for it" seems rather less reassuring than "we will not do this very stupid thing because we recognise that it is very stupid".

 

[Birdjaguar]

Also, Israel's demographic future is Haredi, the most religiously orthodox branch of Judaism and one that will have no truck with Temple-building or the idea of the state of Israel as a divine instrument).

I looked them up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism

If the trend continues, Israel may be in for some dynamic changes.

 

[Mouthwash]

"We will not do this very stupid thing because our religious kooks won't stand for it" seems rather less reassuring than "we will not do this very stupid thing because we recognise that it is very stupid".

We do, I'm just pointing out that even a hypothetical future messianic revival would have a lot of obstacles to jump over.

 

[timtofly]

We do, I'm just pointing out that even a hypothetical future messianic revival would have a lot of obstacles to jump over.

Is a temple even necessary?
Any thoughts on an actual Tabernacle?

 

[Birdjaguar]

We do, I'm just pointing out that even a hypothetical future messianic revival would have a lot of obstacles to jump over.

Not if he/she is the Messiah.

 

[Ajidica]

Not if he/she is the Messiah.

Well, he’s not the Messiah; he’s a very naughty boy!

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Is Netanyahu still the prime minister? I thought his opponent formed a government finally? What's going on?

 

[Lexicus]

Is Netanyahu still the prime minister? I thought his opponent formed a government finally? What's going on?

Last I heard the opposition had given up on forming a government and Netanyahu had invoked sweeping emergency powers including more-or-less suspending the Knesset.

 

[Mouthwash]

Is Netanyahu still the prime minister? I thought his opponent formed a government finally? What's going on?

They formed a unity government, with Gantz abandoning his own coalition to do so, and will both have a term as PM.

EDIT: Oh, maybe not after all. Israeli politics are moving fast right now. Don't make predictions (all of the significant events of the past year took everyone by surprise).