1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[RD] The Israel/Palestine Quarantine Thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Arakhor, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    62,162
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Well at least it is good to know you are more backed than wiki. I suppose that is why you didnt bother reading the article and in effect linked to your own refutation. Of course that hebrew was a dead language for thousands of years is a known fact. It was artificially brought back to serve the ridiculous claim to judea, otherwise half the jewish people already spoke yiddish and the rest would learn it like they would have to do with ages dead hebrew. And to argue hebrew was chosen for pluralism is just naive, let alone refuted by inter-jewish racism against jews of blacker background.
    It doesnt take a relative to the one who organised the sicilian vespers to see through that either :)
     
  2. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    36,754
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Seven centuries later, it would probably be harder to find an ethnic European who isn't related to one of the many Ghibelline Sicilians.
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    62,162
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Meh, i obviously meant the talented usurper of the crown of nicaea, also known as the first of the palaiologoi :)
     
  4. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    What? I linked to a section of that very article, which shows the usage of Hebrew has been continuous throughout those two millennia. That alone seems like a pretty good justification for using it as a national language.

    Such an inclusive place this forum is, where Jews are lectured to by Greeks on what Jewish nationalism is really all about (as though Middle Eastern [e.g. me] or Central Asian Jews would have been just fine with Yiddish as their new mother tongue).

    Your argument is that socioeconomic problems among the Ethiopian Jews whom we flew to Israel, granted citizenship, and taught Hebrew prove that we had no intention of including them in the Zionist project?
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,819
    Location:
    Scotland
    Yeah, the language politics of Zionism have less to do with the Second Temple and more to do with the peculiarities of Jewish nationalism in the early twentieth century. The only realistic alternative was Yiddish, which was problematic because it was an unfamiliar language to both Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews on the one hand, and to assimilated Western European Jews on the other. Perhaps more offensively, the assertion of Yiddish not simply as a Jewish language but as the Jewish language, as a national language, was strongly associated with the Bund, with whom the Zionists had what might gently be called a fraught relationship. Asserting Hebrew as an alternative to Yiddish was tied up in asserting Zionism as an alternative to Bundism, and asserting a distinct identity for Zionism as a movement. Hebrew was attractive or this purpose because it was a language with which almost all Jews were at least passingly familiar.

    Moreover, the effort to revive Hebrew looks somewhat more unusual in retrospect than it did at the time. Many of the "language revival" movements of early twentieth century movements were in part movements towards linguistic reconstruction, rooting out "foreign" elements and rebuilding a "proper" version of the language. Greek and Romanian nationalists particularly expended enormous effort expunging Slavic and Turkish elements from their national languages, creating a version of the language which was imagined to represent a pure descendent of the ancient form, but had never really been spoken by anyone. Modern Hebrew simply lacks the middle part everyone spoke an "incorrect" verson of the language, which makes it easy to identify as a modern reinvention, while it is easy to overlook the many centuries that Greeks and Romanians, among other languages, spent with "impure" versions of their languages.

    It's also worth locating Hebrew in the context of early twentieth century efforts to construct artificial, international languages, most famously Esperanto, which were very popular in the sorts of radical political circles that many Zionists moved. There was a serious effort to establish Esperanto, rather than Russian, as the administrative language of the Soviet Union; the idea that a bold new society required a bold new language was a popular one. Where the Esperantists wanted their language to be spoken by everyone everywhere, advocates of Hebrew expected it to be spoken only by Jews, a relatively small subset of "everyone everywhere", making them appear hard-headed pragmatists by comparison.

    tl;dr the revival of Hebrew sits an intersection of Jewish nationalism, language revival and language-construction in which the Torah serves as a shared reference point more than an inspiration. To the extent that Zionists thrilled at the idea of Hebrew being spoken in Jerusalem once again, it's not fundamentally different to Irish nationalists thrilling at the idea of Irish being spoken in Dublin once again: a happily secular myth, invoking the heroic utterances of David and Finn McCool more than the solemn religious intonations Moses and Saint Patrick.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
    Kyriakos and Mouthwash like this.
  6. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    That's a cause I could get behind (if for no better reason than stopping the spread of English-based monoculture).
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    62,162
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Well, i can't blame them. Turkish sounds ridiculously lowly and ugly :)
     
  8. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    36,754
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
  9. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    I'll finish by linking to this, the best summary of the conflict as a whole and likely the only serious one those here are ever going to read.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2019
  10. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    21,185
    As this is not a "click my link" forum, could you elaborate why you think it is good and honest?

    In other news:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46808797
     
  11. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    He shows how tenuous the assumptions underlying the peace process always were, and even more shockingly, accurately explains the perspectives and motivations of Israelis and Palestinians. Even getting one correct is rare enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  12. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    21,185
    Care to highlight any particular section? It is a long article that based on my reading of the first few paragraphs starts off on a bad foot. What makes it a good explanatory piece compared to, say, something written by Robert Fisk or Chaim Herzog*?

    *Yes, I know Herzog's been dead a while, but his book on the Arab-Israeli Wars, especially the Israeli War of Independence, was still fascinating - such as the sections where he says Israel committed ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arab villages but that it was a military, civil, and security necessity. No dissembling or apologia, just flat out "we did it".
     
  13. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    I didn't say it would pander to your preexisting beliefs, I only said it got things right. The article gets interesting when it starts talking about Abbas.

    Something to note: Palestinian propagandists generally use jargon to stop real moral assessment of the situation. For instance, referring to the expulsion of hostile villages during the war of independence as 'ethnic cleansing' creates a false equivalency, as the term implies that it was (A) an eliminationist action, (B) something artificially imposed, as though Mandatory Palestine hadn't already been organized along ethnic lines. I haven't heard of another instance of ethnic cleansing that deliberately allowed hundreds of thousands of the cleansed population to remain, which suggests that its current definition isn't as useful as you assume.

    The most popular one, however, is pointing out that Israel's presence in the West Bank superficially resembles apartheid (concepts such as motive or circumstances are not even dismissed, they are never mentioned). After both situations have the same name applied to them, it's easy to then say that Israel is the 'same' as South Africa, and this is extended into even more bizarre claims about how the same tactic will work in fighting it (compare this to 'military invasion produced democracy in Europe, so it will produce democracy in Iraq') and how the Palestinians themselves feel about the situation. Of course, since Palestinian identity is quite literally founded on the idea that the Jews aren't a people and that it's just some ideologues working to control the Jewish holy land, they are happy to work with these Westerners against the 'colonial project' that is Israel, with its military control of the West Bank being a lesser but more immediate cause. Those Westerners find it easy to conclude that the occupation of the West Bank is the spark behind the violence.

    It also doesn't help that a substantial part of leftist media is controlled by Russia (which wants influence in the Middle East) and Qatar.
     
  14. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,819
    Location:
    Scotland
    Whose pre-existing beliefs is it pandering to, then?
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  15. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    Mine, which are assuredly far more in contact with reality than his on the matter.

    Moderator Action: Comments like these are assuredly far more in contact with infractable behaviour than others, that's for certain. ~ Arakhor
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2019
  16. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,023
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worthing, Southern England
    My dear fellow, nobody with a decent moral sense is listening to Palestinian propagandists. We just look at reports of casualty figures and the IDF shelling and bombing hospitals, sniping protesters across the border, settlers being allowed to steal land etc. etc.
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  17. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,218
    Location:
    Igloovik
    Even if Palestinian propagandists were truly out there, it is perfectly fair game when you consider the sheer volume of it coming from the other side. You turn on the Christian channel in the U.S., those definitely are not Palestinian propagandists talking.
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  18. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    21,185
    Aww, I'm trying to be nice here.
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  19. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    That's how propaganda works. Casualty figures in particular are meaningless.

    Well, it jives with my experience of Israelis and what I see from Palestinians (not just from an Israeli perspective but looking at how they speak internally, their social media, etc. It's pretty ironic that even though the 'it was ours 2 millennia ago' argument is considered rightly ridiculous in the West, Palestinians spend a great deal of energy trying to show that the Jews have never had any connection to the land - by taking a leaf out of racial antisemitism by calling us fake Jews (usually Khazars), by denying that Judaism is anything more than a religion, by denying that the Jewish temple ever existed in Jerusalem, etc. These are mainstream beliefs among Palestinians.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  20. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,169
    Gender:
    Male
    This was as depressing as I see the situation. At least we agree on the fundamentals. lol

    I'm not sure I but into the whole idea about the nationhood rhetoric in this article as I largely think of nations as a post medieval construct in its present state anyways. Also nations have fallen apart before I reference China's work in say Tibet for reference, or the fracturing of many nations which is sadly becoming more common it seems to me. I reserve the right to be wrong on that one though.
     

Share This Page