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[RD] The Israel/Palestine Quarantine Thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Arakhor, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Link to Tweet.

    Direct link to article (+972 Magazine).

    --------------

    I was on mobile (still am), so the above was a bit brief. I've got a bit more time now so I wanted to explain why this is important (mainly at @Absolution, but I'm in no way demanding you reply. Simply for your benefit).

    Allegedly the army didn't instigate / escalate here, but they were present and did act in defense of the settlers' reported actions. If true, this either means that the army is complicit in protecting settler actions on Palestinian land, or the army doesn't have control over elements that behave in this way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  2. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57462470
     
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  3. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Didn't expect to see the day so soon. But that one is not out of the game until he's buried. Especially as the one think keeping this new government together is opposition to Netanyahu. He won't have to be back: he can't be gone!
     
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  4. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Jailed for corruption?
     
  5. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Deity

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    looks like israel and gaza are at it again. from my understanding hamas started it this time
    which is a mistake because any time that happens Israel will just retaliate 10 times harder like they always do
     
  6. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Not if the Hamas equation is one balancing between getting an Israeli response, and being simply forgotten.

    The Palestinians in some ways are less fearful for the immediate problem of overwhelming Israeli military response, and the long term problem of simply being forgotten and left by the roadside of history, as Israel moves on. Israel wants them to just sit still, do nothing, and then there is no problem. Except that it comes with a kind of existential dread of simply being abandoned and left to rot as the Israelis get comfortable with the situation.

    Which is why simple military arithmetic doesn't apply in the situation. There is no way Hamas can actually take down Israel in any meaningful way, and not also get hit by ten times the force over whatever they still try. But that's not what they do it.
     
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  7. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Also: the israeli retaliation costs them not 10x more, but 100x or even more. It's costly to retaliate like that, the rockets on the other hand are cheap (and nobody cares about the lives lost). So yeah, to not be forgotten, they can also make Israel bleed financially.
     
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  8. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Also, notably, Hamas didn't even start it. This all kicked off when a march in East Jerusalem was allowed to go ahead.
    The bolded bit is possibly why it might have struck a nerve, on top of it apparently being a regular provocation that happens yearly.

    Source (BBC).
     
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  9. Samson

    Samson Deity

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  10. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Deity

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    Even so, this was a huge mistake. Taking it is better than giving Israel excuse to absolutely decimate you yet again.

    Israel's military funding is backed by uncle sam and has been for a long time. I'm sure the cost of Israel retaliating financially is no problem. As an American, to be clear, I want this changed. But my opinion is worthless in the matter
     
  11. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    From inside Gaza the Israeli response drives recruitment. The present crop of fighters are already written off, since they know they are dead-men-walking for taking up arms against Israel. They tend to have accepted that basic condition, and new recruits are coming. And there are an increasing proportion of the population of Gaza who have never known anything other than being locked into Gaza, run by the Hamas, subject of Israeli bombing and shelling from time to time. (The median age is 18, almost 2/3 are under 25.)

    Even if holed up in Gaza, the Hamas now have the wider Palestinian population to win – and right now they are being seen as the only thing standing up to Israel. The whole rocket thing is based on what the Hezbollah did up in Lebanon in the war of 2006. Hamas has wanted to emulate the Hezbollah ever since.
     
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  12. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    Still we can do better things with that money.
    The Iron Dome is a ridiculous waste of money and sometimes I wish it didn't exist.

    It just gives the government a strategical field of restraint in face of the launching of rockets.
    If there was no Iron Dome, there obviously would be less rockets fired, because the euqation would have been much lower on the Israeli side.
    Hamas would know that mere five rockets on Ascalon cause a destructive response by Israel, which is not the case now.


    Regarding the march - well it's a yearly thing. It was limited when it clashed with the weeks of escalation last month, and then the organisers set up a new date, which was accepted by the police.

    Now that this date comes, we see why the escalation round was a strategic victory for Hamas - Hamas thinks they can now call the shots in Jerusalem. This was not seen in more than a decade. They threat with an escalation in Gaza as a result of an event in Jersualem.
    This is bad news for Israel, and this phenomenon has to be chopped down right away.
    As harmful as it may be, this march has to be done somehow, just in order to not let Hamas call the shots in Jerusalem.

    In a more long-term view, the new government will not be able to do anything in order to stregthen the Palestinian Authority over Hamas - as these very topics would bring down this fragile coalition.

    Among Israeli journalists it is assumed that Joe Biden understands this, and will avoid challenging this new government in order to not get Netanyahu back as prime minister.
     
  13. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Is the fact that the march is a yearly thing a defense of it needing to happen, Absolution? That . . . doesn't really follow, to me. Things shouldn't be approved just because they have been before. Things should be approached contextually, and seeing videos of people shouting "death to Arabs" is surely a bit unhelpful in the current climate?

    Nah, because that seems to happen regardless anyway.
     
  14. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    No, but the threat of Hamas, who called us to cancel the march - are the only justification we need.
    We should not give them a single gift or achievement - it will only stregthen their position in Palestinian Arab society, which is bad for all sides.
    Netanyahu helped promoting Hamas that way, which is disastrous.

    I don't care a single bit about the actual march, and actually I'm not sure if I've heard about it before this year.
    It is mainly a march of religious-zionist movements. Cancel this tradition or not - a good discussion for next year.
     
  15. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Deity

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    You're pretty wrong about this. I'll let the number of casualties/infrastructure damage on both sides of the conflict speak for itself.
     
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  16. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    If not Hamas, then who? Fatah? There is going to need to be a party that represents the PA on some level, or if not the PA then Palestine as a nominal territory. No? I'm presuming some kind of two-state solution here (as an outsider, that's my preference), of course.

    On top of that, surely there are people that would argue various political parties within the Knesset being strengthened is also bad for all sides (depending on their level of nationalism and preference for stronger military action)? Some are more hardline than others, and this arguably only contributes to conflict (and thus Hamas' position) as well.
     
  17. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    Statements during the march yesterday:
    • Death to Arabs
    • Burn down your village
    • Jerusalem is ours
    • Shuafat is on fire
    If it was the other side saying such things, there would rightly be allegations of racist terrorism worldwide.

    Worth noting that this involved those in power: Far-right Knesset members, including Religious Zionism’s Bezalel Smotrich, Itamar Ben Gvir and Orit Struck, participated in the march, as did Likud legislators May Golan and Shlomo Karhi.
     
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  18. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    Pffffffffffffffffff are you out of your mind?
    Such calls are so obvious there on "the other side" that we don't even bother caring about it.

    If you cared to listen to the chants that were sang in marches in Lod just during the recent riots.
    Or pretty much every Arab MP was photoed visiting families of suicide bombers.
    So what? We do have a double standard here, or maybe "racism of low expectations" as right-wingers call it.
    We let Arabs get away with extreme nationalism and racism (as long as they are not physically violent), while judging such Jewish actions to much higher social standards.
    I'm okay with it, but claiming the opposite is a sick alienation.

    (I'm talking about society here, just to say - before you bring up some cases of legal misfunctions).
     
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  19. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    Why, yes, I do expect a wealthy Westernised nation to have much higher social standards than terrorists.
     
  20. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    Are you calling every Arab chanting their misgivings about Israel a terrorist? Because that is what it sounds like.

    And then it is one thing to have double standards (which Absolution did not even complain about), but another to pretend such statements are not even made by "the other side"
     

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