1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[RD] The Israel/Palestine Quarantine Thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Arakhor, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,218
    Location:
    Igloovik
    We need Palestinians on here, given equal weight to their side of the story. You can see very clearly here that zionists want to poison the well and discredit them before they ever even get to open their mouth, but that's not the way it works.
     
    brennan and Kyriakos like this.
  2. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    21,185
    The thing is though, why does that matter for statehood?
    Either Israel is responsible for administering the West Bank or it isn't. The Israeli government has made it clear that except for constructing the internally condemned settlements, they do not consider themselves responsible for the administration of the West Bank. However, given the Israeli governments staunch opposition toward a Palestinian state regardless of its borders, there is no real state administration inside the West Bank - a legal limbo that the Israeli government seems dead set on prolonging.
     
  3. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,218
    Location:
    Igloovik
    Well there is that $5 billion border wall Israel built around the West Bank, courtesy of the $5 billion in free money the U.S. gives them every year.

    Oh wait, isn't the U.S. trying to scrounge up $5 billion for a border wall now?
     
  4. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    Statehood is a legal matter. Israel could recognize Areas A and B as a Palestinian state right now and change nothing on the ground.

    The whole peace process isn't just about Palestinians having a state, it is meant to create a comprehensive agreement on every issue of the conflict (the final status of the settlements, the Temple Mount, the Palestinian so-called refugees, etc). It will never succeed because Israelis want recognition for themselves as a nation, not merely a state, and Palestinians can't accept Israelis as constituting a nation.

    True, the situation is not in accordance with the Westphalian model of sovereignty. But since that model's success in the post-WWII world is a product of ethnic cleansing on a vast scale, I don't think it's a good fit.

    There is an autonomous Palestinian administration inside the West Bank. Its jurisdiction would likely be extended in the event of the peace deal, but I'm not sure how imparting the legal status of 'state' onto it is going to change much in practical terms, i.e. it would simply continue to be an Israeli vassal.

    I also think it's unfair to frame the situation as the Israeli government opposing a Palestinian state. Both sides of the Israeli political spectrum oppose it, and this has been the case ever since the Gaza withdrawal.
     
  5. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,169
    Gender:
    Male
    Yea this is the reality on the ground. So is your take that we are in a permanent stalemate until either palestinians are moved out (peacefully or not) or they out breed jewish israelis? Thats basically where I'm at. I don;t even care about it anymore, I just want the Israeli lobby in the USA reduced in influence. They just tried passing a bill during out shutdown allowing states to boycott companies boycotting israeli occupation of west bank or whatever. I'm not even sure what thats supposed to mean. Its ludicrous to pass such nonsense. I couldn't imagine us passing any other such law in regards to any other area.
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  6. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    No, I'm not concerned about Palestinian birthrates. I don't think the West Bankers are suffering and don't really feel the need to change anything.

    Notice how this terminology precludes the idea that people in the US actually like Israel and are acting based on their own beliefs.

    I'm unsure of the legalities myself, but yes, singling out a nation for a boycott is despicable and discriminatory. Though I haven't heard that it targets businesses merely for boycotting the settlements. Can you provide support for that?
     
  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    62,162
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    It is hard for palestinians to post at a leisure game forum when they live in a mass concentration camp like gaza.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  8. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,819
    Location:
    Scotland
    Was this really the best metaphor. :cringe:

    Would you similarly condemn, for example, Jewish boycotts of German products in the 1930s?

    That's not to suggest any direct analogy between Israel and the Third Reich, mind, but you're making what appears to be a universal claim, so it should be able to stand up to any test. Else, the question is surely on the merits of any specific boycott?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  9. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,023
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worthing, Southern England
    A more morally bankrupt position would be hard to imagine.
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  10. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,169
    Gender:
    Male

    Its funny that post was about as agreeable that I'm probably ever going to be with you and you just crapped all over it. I understand you don't think you need to change. Your whole outlook at life would be destroyed if you ever lost your certainty of your philosophical footing. We all understand you are cool with the plight of the Palestinians. My question was more long term, like real long term. One hundred years or so? You don;t think Israel's birthrate and Palestinians birthrate come into play?

    Yea I get it AIPAC is America. You got me there. No seriously AIPAC and other lobbying groups for Israel are vastly over represented in congress. I support Israel as a home for the Israeli Jews, I just wish you'd get done with it already and yea I wish the bastardization of US politics would end. Your comment on how my terminology precludes the idea that Israel has a lot of US support is just wrong and is the reading you brought into the conversation. I'm actually on your side in so far as I believe you have a right to exist, I just want the conflict over with as soon as possible. So even I support you, just not to this current level. It is becoming very hard for me to choke down the oppression that is taking place.

    Finally if a person or business wants to boycott something it should be up to them and since it is protected by the first amendment I do not believe congress should be trashing our constitution for the sake of an Israeli PR campaign. I get this is a tough line to tow, but this is what happens when one nation's political persuasion here in the US gets so strong it becomes sore spot. There are a lot of sides to this debate our government literally pays out like Israel is an American state. It takes in almost as much as Wyoming per year in federal assistance. 3.8 billion to Israel vs 5.1 billion to Wyoming? in so far as I can tell. That just feels crazy.


    https://bdsmovement.net/economic-boycott
    International companies aid and abet Israel’s violations of international law, including by operating in illegal Israeli settlements and acting as contractors for the Israeli military and government.
     
  11. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,819
    Location:
    Scotland
    Mouthwash's claim was not that civilian casualties have no moral significance, but that the specific figures presented by Palestinian leaders are too unreliable to possess any moral significance, that they represent simply what those leaders need them to be to generate maximum political capital. The key distinction, here, is between "casualties" and "casualty figures".

    I don't know how true this claim is, but I'm inclined to agree that any figures presented by Palestinian leaders should be taken with a weighty fistful of salt. I'd add, however, that the IDF have a similar incentive to minimise casualty figures, so official Israeli statistics are only going to be reliable to the extent that they are subject to independent oversight, and I'm really not sure how far that may be the case.
     
    peter grimes likes this.
  12. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,023
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worthing, Southern England
    "Between 2,125[20] and 2,310[18] Gazans were killed and between 10,626[18] and 10,895[51] were wounded (including 3,374 children, of whom over 1,000 were left permanently disabled[52]). Gazan civilian casualty rates estimates range between 70% by the Gaza Health Ministry,[14][22][51] 65% by United Nations Protection Cluster by OCHA (based in part Gaza Health Ministry reports),[19] and 36% by Israeli officials,[53][20] The UN estimated that more than 7,000 homes for 10,000 families were razed, together with an additional 89,000 homes damaged, of which roughly 10,000 were severely affected by the bombing.[54] Rebuilding costs were calculated to run from 4-6 billions dollars, over 20 years.[55]"

    A whole mountain of salt would be needed to make me think this was not disgusting, inhuman, criminal behaviour on the part of the IDF.
     
    peter grimes, Kyriakos and Silurian like this.
  13. adcarrymaokai

    adcarrymaokai Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,608
    Complaining about Palestinian propaganda when the IDF literally has instagram, facebook, and twitter filled with daily contests like "post a picture which describes your favorite part about the IDF"?

    If we talked about propaganda, Israel is at the forefront at spreading one. Just some examples I saw from Israel recently: "hey look, we are so diverse!!!1! We have vegans in the military! We use fake leather, so no animals are hurt! ^_^" or "look, we have a gay pride parade! The gays and women serve in the military, we are so amazing UwU!! :3!"

    Anyone who isn't completely brainwashed can see who is doing the most propaganda here.

    PS: an example of how Israel incorporates progressive movements into its propaganda machine to gain public appeal

     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
    Kyriakos likes this.
  14. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    Both Gaza and the West Bank have internet access. I'd applaud someone coming on here to expose just how sick the opinions of most Palestinians are.

    I object to this boycott on the grounds that it is aimed at destroying Israel (the explicit goal of the BDS movement is to see it settled with an Arab population). A boycott of Nazi Germany doesn't imply that you want to see Germany gone.

    Well, actually, no. I'm pointing out that the death toll, by itself, cannot show which party is wrong or which actions were necessary. Looking at Brennan's post, it's clear that he views the whole thing in isolation - but hundreds or thousands of Israeli lives have been saved because of those actions.

    Direct efforts on the part of Palestinians or Israelis are small potatoes compared to the industries that have arisen in the West.

    Those ideas are extremely popular among Israelis and Jews in general? Israel isn't a political advertisement, it's a country. Suggesting that every progressive thing Israel does is merely PR aimed at Westerners is, itself, a form of dehumanization.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    REDY likes this.
  15. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    36,754
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    So you're (justifiably) complaining about people dehumanising Israel, yet in the very same post doing the same to "most" Palestinians?
     
    brennan and Kyriakos like this.
  16. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    Huh? All I said was that beliefs most Westerners consider beyond the pale are thoroughly mainstream in Palestinian society. I like Palestinian culture in general - just as I like Italian culture, but wouldn't enjoy being in Mussolini's Italy.
     
  17. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    36,754
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    How exactly do you know what is mainstream in Palestinian society? I can't imagine you've been there, after all.
     
  18. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,368
    Location:
    Hiding
    For starters, the killers of Israeli civilians are celebrated the same way firefighters are celebrated here. While Israelis may justify military action, some of which may result in innocent deaths, no one was calling to give an award to the guy who killed Palestinians on a beach.

    I interact with Israeli Arabs on a daily basis, and while they're a lot more peaceful, many still can't grasp why we wouldn't want to live as minorities in an Arab-majority state - which is to say, they occupy the same place on the political spectrum as Greek or Russian irredentists.
     
    REDY likes this.
  19. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,819
    Location:
    Scotland
    According to the BDS website, the goals of the movement are as follows:
    Which of these items entails the destruction of Israel and the substitution of a Jewish population with an Arab one?
     
    peter grimes likes this.
  20. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,023
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worthing, Southern England
    Of the outright lies in your post, this is probably the worst. Operation Protective Edge resulted in far more Israeli deaths than years of 'peace' - not only was this act of aggression illegal in international law, not only was it not necessary for the safety of Israelis but it made their lives more dangerous.
     

Share This Page