[RD] The Israel/Palestine Quarantine Thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Arakhor, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Not entirely:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
    Now, I'd be the first to admit that popular opinion toward Israel among Palestinians is at an all time low, in no small part due to the fact for the last two decades the Israeli government has done absolutely nothing to improve trust between Israelis and Palestinians and, with actions such as the massive expansion of settlements, have only damaged trust and illustrated that even with massive international attention the Israeli government has no interest in promoting trust among Palestinians, let alone a Palestinian state that isn't Bantustan-ed to hell and back.


    Hey, I'm just trying to avoid being called an anti-Semite. Last time I said Israel, in the context of the Israeli political establishment, was opposed to a Palestinian state and was carrying out actions that, at best, are indicative of a disinterest in the "peace process", someone (might have been you, not sure, can't be bothered to search) called me an anti-Semite because I was ascribing a monolithic view to the entire Israeli political establishment and ignoring different peace movements in the establishment.

    *Though the "peace process" is so far off the rails these days it might be worth admitting that train is never getting back on the rails and instead see if we can turn the train into a bus.

    I think it is telling that you equate Israel ceasing settlement construction in territory that it has emphasized to the international community it is not responsible for with along with some border adjustments as "the destruction of Israel". The boycotts and sanctions against apartheid South Africa were done with the explicit goal of forcing South Africa to abandon apartheid, which seeing as apartheid was the bedrock of then-South Africa, would constitute "destroying South Africa". If you consider that Israel cannot exist without the settlements and their continued expansion in territory nominally to become part of a Palestinian state, then we have a bigger issue here.
     
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  2. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

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    I'd like to know how Mouthwash understands the difference between recognising Israel as a state and recognising it as a nation. Without being obviously discriminatory to millions of arabs I mean.
     
  3. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    I said they wanted to settle in a massive Arab population. Nothing in there about replacing Jews (though most of the Muslim/Arab BDS supporters tacitly consider the next step to be 'encouraging' Jews to emigrate).

    Yes, yes, they recognize 'Israel'. And still demand that it grant citizenship to millions of descendants of Palestinians, so that the 'people' of Israel can democratically vote to dissolve it, incorporate it into a unitary state with the West Bank and Gaza, and of course deny Jews any form of independence or immigration.

    Of course, that's in the parallel universe where Palestinians are predominantly liberal secularists. In our universe there would immediately be expulsions and massacres.

    I don't where Israel claimed that it is not responsible for Area C.

    The stated goals of the BDS movement sort of contradict you on this point.

    Doesn't seem difficult to me. Mr. Abbas can accept that Jews constitute a nationality, that Israel is their nationstate, and does not have to say that this ought to restrict the rights of its non-Jewish citizens.
     
  4. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    Person from country X : "Jewish people in this country are more loyal to Israel than to our country"
    Jewish people from country X : "That's antisemitic"
    Mouthwash :
    By saying stuff like that I think you're fueling the resentment against Jewish people in places where they're perfectly integrated in society.

    And if that's really your view of Israel, it's also rather scary to think of it as a religiously closed expansionist state. It's odd that you would want to present it that way.
     
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  5. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Just like suggesting that Iranian-Americans might be more loyal to the Ayatollahs than the US government would be a form of racism.

    If you think that having a nation of their own somehow means Jews everywhere would automatically be under suspicion, then you may be part of the problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
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  6. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    You're the one saying that "Jews are a nationality", as if it was something inherent to being of the Jewish faith (or perhaps you even meant Jewish culture).
     
  7. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Not at all, at least in the strict Westphalian sense - but modern-day Jews who live in Israel do constitute such a nationality.
     
  8. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

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    You don't consider the idea of a state based around a religion to be hopelessly backward in the 21st century? Nor to make people in that state who do not share that religion de-facto second class citizens?
     
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  9. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    They want to offer right of return to all Palestinian, yes, but even if every Palestinian on the planet, including those in the Palestinian territories, moved to Israel proper, they'd only make up about 60% of the population- a majority, sure, but not realistically enough to bury the Jews, and certainly not when the Jews would probably continue to hold most of the wealth and the institutional power, at least for several generations.

    Considering how unlikely the above scenario is, and at the same time how mild it is, what exactly leads you to believe that the ultimate goal is- and I'm quoting you directly here- "destroying Israel"?
     
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  10. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    It is, if our goal is having a society where Jews have self-determination. (Also, I assume you're still talking about the universe where Palestinian Arabs aren't violently nationalistic and genocidal.)

    You actually think this is what Zionists aspire to?

    Because they view the idea of Jewish independence as racist, and think a society should be created that doesn't distinguish between Jews and Arabs. This is antisemitic because the standard is only applied to Jews (why is Arab or Greek independence not racist?).

    I'm curious, do you actually believe that Israel can remain a Jewish state with a majority of its citizens being non-Jews?
     
  11. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Does Jewish self-determination necessarily exclude or limit self-determination for non-Jewish Israelis? After all, something like one-fifth of the current Israeli population are Palestinian and Druze- do they constitute a barrier to Jewish self-determination, too? Is it sufficient that Jews remain a supermajority, a simple majority, a plurality?

    Again I'd point out that there are already around two million Palestinians in Israel. Are they "violently nationalistic and genocidal"?

    You claimed that the destruction if Israel is the stated goal of the BDS movement. Can I clarify in which manifesto the above assertion appears?

    Does Israel losing some uniquely Jewish character constitute its destruction?
     
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  12. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    I thought that Israel liked to present itself as a modern, liberal, secular state. Maybe you're constantly flipping between Jewishness as ethnicity, religion and culture as it suits the argument.
     
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  13. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    So far there is no well defined culture, other than the constant warfare between two competing ideologies. Otherwise the culture is no different than any other western culture.

    What religion are we talking about? Are we talking about a certain diet? The religion in question revolves around a temple that does not exist. Even if the Temple was built tomorrow how much of the Israeli population would change their habits and take advantage of it's resources or practices? It seems to me the religious practices or lack thereof are as diverse as the geographic regions they migrated from.

    Ethnicity seems to be the only thing the influx of Israeli citizens have in common. It would seem to me the more things like culture or religion they can agree on the stronger the bond forms that drives the need to drive out all other inhabitants that do not accept and conform to this bond.

    If religion is the major force, then perhaps they carried their religion, even over the thousand of generations closer to an acceptable form than the majority as a whole cares to admit? Since religion drives culture, even the diverse cultures they faced over time never really caught on. There are pockets of ethnic groups all over the earth that never succumbed to outside influences. Why would diverse national influences on an ethnicity that avoided such influences and still have a strong bond, not change the direction such a reunion would engender if it were allowed, despite the opposition to the contrary?

    Talk about Pandora's box being opened when Jews were allowed to re-settle after hundreds of years. Jews came from Western thinking progressive nations, but they still have the eastern thought process where ethnicity, culture, and by extension religious lines are blurred. Perhaps it is the distractors who try to divide the three attibutes into different arguing points in order to break down the whole as a unified front?

    Coming from a culture where religion happens on the weekends, deaths, and marriages, and culture the rest of the time, religion seems to be something one only uses when they need to. That is probably not how religion should be used. If religion dictates every aspect of life is it really the choice of the participants or just a cultural norm? As for ethnicity, there is no choice, although you could refrain from passing it down to a new generation. It would seem that to a Jew, ethnicity is not that big of deal, as procreation into every other ethnic group has not set it apart, but cemented access to what it means to be a Jew world wide. Of course descendants are quite free to deny the fact, but they cannot change it. Since segregation is ethically frowned upon and integration may not always bring peace, the only course of action is conversion or ethnic integration, unless that goes against everything one holds dear and unchangeable.
     
  14. adcarrymaokai

    adcarrymaokai Emperor

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  15. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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  16. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    A supermajority at least. That's not to say that maintaining Jewish independence is an absolute imperative. If a demographic challenge were coming from a peaceful group like the Druze, I'd accept some kind of binational state with legally delineated groups (preserving, for instance, the right of Jews to immigrate).

    No, because until recently they've been kept away from the Islamist and nationalistic currents of the Arab world.

    I take it you wouldn't think that multinational corporations are only guilty of exploiting the proletariat if they explicitly confess to that aim?

    Of course not, just as we can settle millions of Germans on Polish soil without affecting Poland in any way.

    Where is it that you think I'm doing that? The conversion practices of Reform and Conservative 'Judaism' have indeed produced some blurriness of identity among Western Jews, but every group is clear-cut in the Levant. I can't imagine a simpler line to draw.

    Not at all antisemitic, these mere critics of Israel. :rolleyes:

    I think Trump's wall would be more reasonable if ISIS had a large presence in the Mexican desert.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  17. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    What does the writing on Netanyahu's image say?
     
  18. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Israel-Egypt fence. (The writing in the upper right just says 'Likud'.)
     
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  19. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    that is both a false equivalency and also not true. I don't know who would deem the statement "Iranian-Americans might be more loyal to the Ayatollahs than the US government" racist, I have no idea how race even plays into it.

    first off, ayatollah is not a state, nor a head of state, but a religious figure. it's like saying "Christians are more loyal to God than they are to the US government", it's pretty nonsensical, because the statements aren't mutually exclusive.

    second off, you could perhaps brand that statement as "islamophobic", but only if you're really poisoned by whatever idpol echochamber is popular right now, and then it'd still only be a weak strawman.

    "Jewish people in X country are more loyal to Israel than to this country" is making a statement about allegiance and geopolitics, and there is absolutely nothing antisemitic about it at all, just like saying:

    "some Turkish people in Germany are more loyal to Erdogan Turkey than to the German state" is not an anti-Turkish statement, it is a statement of fact denoting the current geopolitical situation.

    also, **** the grey wolves.

    wait, what? excluding the idea of "western culture" being dumb and backwards, do you genuinely think that israeli culture is not vastly different from contemporary German, French, British or American culture? because that, to me, is an insane statement.

    culture is everything we think, speak, act, eat, wear, like, hold dear, hate, our art, religion, political system, habitus, our morals and norms, our television program, our yellow press, our enemies, our friends, do you not think Israel quite unique in that respect?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  20. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    No, I do not think Israel is a unique isolated country any different than any other western country. Up until the great wars, and the fight over ethnic lines in many European countries most of the citizens in every country thought that they were a country blessed by God, and that religion determined who the next king or ruler would be, and that divine providence was a driving factor. Of course each flavor of religious activity thought theirs was the only one, but who was really keeping track?

    Since Israel was "birthed" out of this kind of thinking and before religion was totally divorced from the public way of life, if there is something that seems off, it would be that not enough time has passed. The governmental ideal of Israel was more in line with social atheism so if anything the difference would be that Israel was fighting for a national identity that was alien to western thought even if western thought was heading that way itself. Even the Soviet Union experiment did not last as long as the struggle in Israel over it's identity.

    I am not downplaying any anti-semetic notions that do want to make Israel look like an isolated country fighting against the rest of the world. But such notions do not make Israel any different than the rest of current western nations.

    Every country though is driven by the majority ideals anyways. Even trends hardly vary that much to say that every 100 years a nation is totally different. Smaller nations, population wise, will experience change quicker and in a more profound way. Not many countries are that isolated now, and such change may be more noticeable in a shorter time span. But Israel today does not seem to have changed over night to make it that much different that would warrant me to think otherwise.
     

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