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The Jotnar in Wildmana

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by Sephi, Apr 16, 2010.

  1. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    Since they are a new civ they get their own bug/feedback thread. If someone wants to volunteer to write a concept page for them, step forward :D

    too bad ArcticCircle isn't around anymore, his creation is pretty awesome :goodjob:
     
  2. Otiose

    Otiose Chieftain

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    In my first game as the jotnar, they have the civ-trait: Agnostic but the pedia suggests RoK. Is this intentional? (I am working off a fresh install with the latest patch 8.02)
     
  3. Brokenbone

    Brokenbone Prince

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    Yeah I wasn't sure of that either. In RiFE I'd rush ROK because the giants need gold, gold, and more gold, in order to fuel their troop upgrades. Additionally they do have a religious line (Mouth of the Divine and whatnot), I am not sure if Agnosticism simply makes all that dormant or what, unless maybe you played Unrestricted Leaders.

    I did play one Jotnar game and wasn't fully certain if familiar RiFE features were in. Example, Giants get "age" promotions the longer they stick around, I wasn't sure that Wild Mana has an age counter precisely which could be used to apply an age status. Also, citizens in RiFE slowly gain XP like FF/RiFE workers do, and age credit which is worthless to them until they upgrade, which all of a sudden they are like, a really old 30 XP "Wielder of Arms" or whatever.

    Not sure where a "clean" Jotnar properties type description might be lifted from RiFE, it was pretty different than the original version by Arctic Circle, but doing a "markup" on top of that to show what didn't transition to Wild Mana, plus any unique Wild Mana twists, might be interesting. Again, things like Jotnar fort commanders founding their own cities would be a RiFE feature with no equivalent here, since hey, forts aren't capable of being "claimed." Lots of subtle differences I'm sure!
     
  4. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    I merged them from FF, not Rife. The biggest feature of Jotnar are 1-radius cities and powerful units which make up for a quite unique gameplay.

    haven't merged the age promotions yet, Jotnar look quite strong already and removed the xp promotions for Jotnar citizens. Other changes are making them agnostic (they were already blocked from allmost all religious units), moved traditions civic to a seperate civic category. Jotnar Hill giants are melee instead of Animals unitcombat. Will modify the Jotnar pedia
     
  5. Otiose

    Otiose Chieftain

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    ahh so agnostic is intended:goodjob: may I suggest to slightly lower the upgrade cost of units to compensate from the lack of commerce? dropping it by ten gold or so wouldn't grant a huge advantage in unit numbers and it would help out a great deal.
     
  6. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Why make them agnostic? They actually had a unique priest that could spread religions. The Mouth, think it's called. They're designed to follow religions, they just get a single priest unit so they can avoid having to upgrade countless citizens just to spread their religion.

    Moving Traditions is also a bit... off. The whole reason AC put it in Government was to block all other government civics. Not that we're necessarily keeping it in RifE (just need to add the ability for traits to modify the amount of food consumed by citizens), but still.

    I still disagree about the 1-radius cities... I really can't see giants living that close together. It also encourages playing against the lore... A fading race, which spams cities every two tiles? I like the mechanic, I just don't like it for Giants. Have ideas to use it elsewhere. ;)
     
  7. tatva

    tatva Chieftain

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    I tried them a bit. They have the same problem than Illians: they start in tundra, and with -20% food from descentralization, they get 2 pop in 15 turns, and that means a much slower start than other civs.
    Besides that, I really dont like the 1 radius cities. Starting in tundra means you need lots of woods to start fine, but later you might want to cut them. Well, in 2 radius cities I leave forests in second radius and cut them in first radius, so I can counterattack enemy units (which dont get the bonus of woods). With jotnar you cant do that, and if you chop woods then you have almost no hammers, unless you have some hills in the first radius. I am a fanatic of high productiveness (hammers), and jotnar tend to go for another type of economy.
    I have not played them more than the begining so I am just speculating about this.

    About the first problem, I am playing Illians and I can say that you need to start in ice not tundra or you are doomed, and all because of the new descentralization with less food. It makes calendar a must have, but you have no resources needing plantation, so it is a waste of time, and may mean you loose the game from begining. I think the same would happen with jotnars, and in fact with any civ you play if you start in tundra. I think descentralization must have no penalty.
     
  8. wapamingo

    wapamingo Prince

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    Jotnar cause OOS every 2-3 turns in MP games (every time a city is built, for example)

    Comments with respect to tundra start, their hero is an early hero and gets both scortch and spring, so you can terraform the landscape around you.

    I think that keeping the Traditions in the civ-specific section is fine, personally.
     
  9. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    they didn't have access to all the religious units (not just priests, but also the military units like diseased corpses). basically gave them agnostic to reflect that they don't gain much from religion anyway but also to compensate for allowing them a government civic.

    I think forcing the player to take a particular civic is bad. Atleast in the current system that doesn't offer so much choice anyway.

    In civ population in cities in exponential. A 18 size city has a lot more population than several 8 size cities. I think having no grand cities fits a fading race. I wouldn't even consider them cities, more a larger kind of settlement ;).
     
  10. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I can understand that, but there are economic effects as well. Dwarven Mines from RoK (at least in RifE), Ancient Forests from FoL, etc.

    I agree. Just saying that it might be too strong when allowing both.

    I completely agree, but I think we disagree on what each constitutes.

    In my view, a Jotnar city is more than just a single family (Father/Mother/Children). Otherwise they are breeding too fast for the lore, as each city is producing Adults.

    So, expand each Jotnar city to a clan. I think we're pretty much agreed on that one, right? In my view, the single tier city is too small for them to have adequate living space (Giants + Thralls, here). The 3 tier city gives each individual family one tile to work.

    So basically, I'm completely disregarding the "Population" line in the summary for the city. It honestly has no real use, and is far too high for FfH anyway. For the Jotnar, I consider them having one family per pop point. Which then has it's own plot to work, with the assistance of their thralls. ;)
     
  11. Knickohr

    Knickohr Chieftain

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    First thanks Sephi for merging the Jotnar, i played them in FF and Im very happy they are now in Wildmana.

    Two Points:
    1. They dont profit from +xp via buildings (Barracks, Form of the Titan etc.). Due the removing of the xp gaining citizens the units start at lvl1 and this feels week for a "mighty giant". Even with 1-2 points stronger they only get an 50:50 rate againt lvl2 units. In my game i had this issue with hill giants againt axemen, and there were (as it should) more axemen...

    2. I agree with Valkrionn, that a Religion is more then some units. You can believe in ethik, Gods etc. but never support the institution thats fokus on this believes.
    I never thought that the giants would be agnostic. They have no need for "small" priest, but i dont believe that they would have no interessts in metaphysical issues.
    In Balancing terms: RoK would help in the early game, and in my game i could use the help. After researching Trade/Currency and get support from the bankerhouse, money wasnt longer an issue. But it feeled like being drawn in that direktion.

    And one question: The Jotnar are huge, right? How they dig in the earth for iron/gold? Wouldnt they need special huge mines? Or is there some magic-way?
     
  12. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    fixed 1.) When Jotnar Citizens spawn, they will have all usual buildings effects (xp, free experience) applied.

    Jotnar dig for stuff by forcing others.
     
  13. Hellsau

    Hellsau Chieftain

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    Founded a new city with bad squares throughout the first square, but in the BFC there is a forested grassland tile (2F 1H) accessible due to my existing culture. That tile was the default tile worked by the new city, and I get the benefits of that tile. Since the Jotnar are prevented from working those tiles, I can't change from that tile. Screens attached.

    I was going to wait until I hit 2 pop to report this in case of additional bugs, but the Illians decided to launch stasis, so that might take a while.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. iffi

    iffi Warlord

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    Same here. An elephant camp on the 2nd 'ring' is forced to be the default worked tile. Can not change it, if I click on it I will get moved out from the 'city map' into the base map and nothing happens. After growing to size 2 and up no further wierdness has happened, but still, the camp is worked 'illegally'. Poachers..

    Other issues:

    1) Triton upgraded from Giant Tortoise keeps the 'crew promos'. At least the 'sword' promo was kept. I think the whole implementation of these is bad, and they should be removed. Why give the player an extra str point?

    2) Tortoises are built by hammers and then can be upgraded to Tritons. A loop-hole around the Citizen mechanic. Especially since the tritons can walk on land, so basically can be used like any land unit. And the upgrade cost is nothing compared to weaker units.

    3) Wielder-of-Arms are enabled at Iron Working, not at Advanced Warfare like Champions.
     
  15. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    can you "solve" the ring issue by temporarily using specialists?

    1) is odd. not sure how to deal with it
    2) made Tritions a national unit (limit 4)
    3) fixed
     
  16. BasilAbdef

    BasilAbdef Chieftain

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    I played Jotnar a bit and they seem really, really weak to me. Their units might be a bit stronger but the huge upgrade costs for even the most basic of units means that just about any other civ can overwhelm them in the field. Hill giants cost like ~250 gold to upgrade? In the time it takes to accumulate that much in the early game without completely freezing research, the AI could easily have massed a dozen+ axemen. It gets even worse from there.
     
  17. graywarden

    graywarden King

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    This past weekend I played a hotseat game with my son playing as the Jotnar. His first reaction was similar to yours, but as we got deeper into the game, his view changed. Also he was able to produce enough gold easily to offset the upgrade costs, when he needed them. It takes a couple of games with a number of the civilizations in Wild Mana to reorientate oneself to their particular style, and redevelop ones standard strategies. I too have been guilty of jumping to a conclusion, when evaluating a new challenge with some of these civilizations. Re-evaluate your position after a number of games as you catch on to the different strategies that are available by the differences in a particular civ.
     
  18. iffi

    iffi Warlord

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    No. I can actually semi-succesfully click and set up the specialist, but in practise, the illegally worked tile remains worked. The specialist is not really put into effect (no bonuses appear and its icon remains fogged), but the small 'minus' icon appears, and a mouse-over on it says a forced specialist is applied. I can actually set as many of these ghost specialist as I want, for example it would say '6 forced specialist are applied', but again, no bonuses are given.
    To clarify, only the last 'population point', corresponding to the illegal tile workers, could not be set up as a specialist. The normal workers turned into specialists just fine.

    None of the other 10 settlements had this issue.
     
  19. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I remember FF used to have that issue, so it could be good to ask there about if and how they fixed it ;)
     
  20. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Xienwolf did indeed fix it (was about to post something along the same lines), but I can't remember exactly how. ;)
     

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